Would prefer that dells version use 1.8" hard drive instead of ssd, much more storage space/dollar.
Defiantly would like to see screen size 12 to 13 inch range.
The last thing in the world I would be interested in would be some 7 or 9" screen.

I am always amazed at the speed HP seems to roll this stuff out at. If the market changes tomorrow, HP will pulling something out it's hat to suit the trend while Dell is still thinking about last month.

And that's what, about a $700 price tag difference between the Linux and Windows versions. Please take note Dell.

We have like 4 ideas about making a sub-notebook.
Aikiwolfie: That's just because it's topped out specs. Chances are the Vista version will only be ~300$ more.

As long as it does not look so ugly, OK.

Offer both Linux and Windows Vista, and Windows XP while it is still available.

Maybe it could be called the Inspiron M1000 (M for mini)?

The Windows version needs higher specs smjjmz or it won't run. The Windows XP version of the Eee PC is getting higher specs too. But the performance of the lower spec Linux machine will still be the same as the higher spec Windows machine because Windows hogs so much of the systems resources.

I wonder what OS it will have... (Dell, don't commit suicide and put VHB on it. Please.)
Aikiwolfie: I know that, which is why I added ~200$ to the OEM cost of Vista.

EDIT: Shouldn't this be marked as COMING SOON ?

All agreed. Except that I'll add that the real target price point should be $199 !

It's all a waste of time. Nokias 810 WiFi thingy is more portable, will connect to your phone via Bluetooth, has a touch screen and probably has a longer battery life.

Oh and it has Debian.
But a 200$ price point is more realistic to something that's _really_ pared down, like the Elonex One or the XO-1. (What's with the obsession over one!?) Or it could be a desktop system, like the Everex gPC.

Yeah, because if you actually had $500 to spend, then you might just buy..
an iPhone.. which is obviously WAY more portable :)

Criteria: (a) 8.9" screen (with good resolution) + (b) Atom. That's the moment (and I mean moment!) I'll buy the HP or DELL version with (c) Vista OS. Yes please, please sir can I have some more. :-)

The key over the Nokia810 or iPhone (which isn't available in Canada) is the keyboard size. Yup. I need a laptop (8.9") for my laptop (17").

The idea with this size is to have an actual keyboard you can type on and a screen large enough to actually see something. Have you ever tried surfing the internet on a cell phone, its useless because you have to scroll all over to be able to read things. The atom processor is something like $50 so I doubt you will see a $199 price tag. I think you need to be a bit more realistic.

canadaboy: Do you really think Vista will run well on a low-powered Atom and at a price point of 500$ or so?

It will run real slow. :D

And would Dell sell something that gets that much media attention, only to have it run like XP on a 486? I think not.

LOL at Vista on an Atom! What's the bets if Vista is an option it'll be the most basic version of Vista yet seen.

Windows mobile if anything and even that is a dog. If they were to offer Ubuntu and an under $300 price tag I think I would have to pick one up.

Yep UbuntuMobile is supposed to be as good as it's desktop big brother. But I must confess I really want to see Android storm the smart phone and ultra stupidly small portables markets. It's been in the wings for so long.

I never did get to test it much since it didn't play well with my Inspiron 6000 but it would be worth a few hundred if it has decent specs with Ubuntu. I would just need to switch to more open source software, is there one that is compatible with Office 2007 since that is what they use at work. I also use my blackberry for my calendar so I would need something for that.

Doesn't Office 2007 use the OOXML file format? Now that OOXML is practically an international standard OpenOffice 3 will carry support for OOXML. So moving from Office 2007 and OpenOffice should be relatively painless.

@winoffice - You said "As long as it does not look so ugly, OK."

I'm curious as to what you and others would like to see in regards to the design aspect of such a mini. Or what other mini pc's out there have a look/feel or color you like?

Personally, I like the tablet look with a swivel screen which would be great for watching movies on a plane. Here is an example of one by Fujitsu. It doesn't have a touchpad and a touch screen would go against what Dell is trying to do so perhaps use a keyboard with the nub for navigation.



I have never used such a small pc but I it has to be much better than my cell phone. Just make the screen larger that the fujitsu so there is less border around the screen. That is the one thing I don't like about the example.

That Fujitsu might be coming with Linux on it eventually. SLED.
aikiwolfie: ***x doesn't actually fit to the OOXML spec. But nonetheless, OO.o3 will support it.
As for the design, I think you should definitely target it at the people who bought the EeePC; i.e. make it roundish and have customizable colors. Try not to create something that should be thrown into the sun due to its ugliness.

Her is a review of the HP mini note http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4352

And a video comparing boot up times against the EEE with Xp.



Lets just say they weren't impressed with the processor, touchpad and pricing.

Something else interesting from the review.

PCMark05 measures overall system performance (higher scores mean better performance):

HP 2133 Mini-Note (1.6GHz VIA C7-M ULV) 801 PCMarks
HTC Shift (800MHz Intel A110) 891 PCMarks
Asus Eee PC 4G (630MHz Intel Celeron M ULV) 908 PCMarks
Asus Eee PC 4G (900MHz Intel Celeron M ULV) 1,132 PCMarks
Everex CloudBook (1.2GHz VIA C7-M ULV) 612 PCMarks

HTC shift had a better score than HP. :D

The Cloudbook did worse, it's probably something with VIA processors...
And I believe I said this already, and now it has been proven (because someone was stupid enough to do it) Vista on a cheap UMPC is not going to work well.

Personally I think Nokia has it bang on the button with their 810 Internet Tablet. Slid out keyboard with a touch screen. I don't know if it has hand writing recognition but I think that's a must have item. As people get used to using stupidly small PCs they're going to get sick of having to type everything and start looking for a more natural and fluid input method.

I also think the acronym should be SSP. Stupid Small PCs. :o)

I just watched the startup time video. What's the point if it takes so long to get started? HP have just fallen on their face. Nice design. Crap OS.

@aikiwolfie: "HP have just fallen on their face. Nice design. Crap OS."

Uh - that's why they're selling it with Linux, as the Idea states.

Here is a pic of the Kohjinsha SA1 which has, swivel screen and touchpad but no touch screen. It seems pretty nice.



Quick video of it.



They even make a model with a DVD drive. SWEET!

Close up of keyboard and touchpad.

jmxz I meant what's the point in HP putting Vista on their machine if it takes that long to start up. These machines are supposed to be quick and simple to use.

@aikiwolfie: "jmxz I meant what's the point in HP putting Vista on their machine"

I think it's kinda like those "how many clowns can you fit in this small car" ads they used to have on TV.

Hmm... that analogy works in so many ways.

LOL

Playing devils advocate here, the start up time could also be decreased on Vista by disabling some services no?

And some people may accept the added delay as opposed to having to us an OS they are not familiar with. What do you guys think?

@chris_b:
I imagine on these small systems they're already running a minimal number of services?
With a 1.6GHz VIA CPU, I certainly don't expect it running well with everything enabled.

The smallest subnotebooks seem to be getting XP even on new (March '08) models. I'm guessing that XP with disabled services will be even less resource intensive than Vista with disabled services.

People are more familiar with XP. Also, what services would you disable? I think the biggest CPU/Disk hogs are Firewall/Antivirus, and disabling those on Windows makes the system rather unsafe. Whereas on Linux, these resource intensive applications are not needed, so if they were sold with, say, a 64-bit Ubuntu based OS with E17, it'd be quite fast.

I know people jumpped on me when I said "Vista" - but here's why (and to be truthful, it wasn't so much Vista, but Vista + Atom, and I would think that the specs on the new upcomming VIA chip would give a Vista + Via a good go compared to Atom): there is something to be really said about a consumer's belief in usability, similarity, and other comforts.

Yes, there is a transition point between XP and Vista going on, but Vista will be pushed through, and the defacto Windows standard will become Vista. This means (for me), supporting one UI, one supported set of drivers, one common platform, will be a lot better than XP (mini) + Vista (laptop/desktop).

It's much the same reason Linux (and I love Ubuntu) had problems moving off the physical shelves at Wal-Mart: Consumer concern over something different (not Windows, and not Mac based). People going "it's a computer - do I know someone in my family that can support it if something goes wrong?". I find a similar approach with my desire for Vista - it will be easier to support with my other Vista systems. I'm not wanting to lock a 3 year corporate life-cycle product into XP (think 3 years = 2011).

That's to avoid the consumer belief no software runs on computers except for Windows and Mac OS. I'm pumpped about the continuing growth of Linux, but it's not "large scale consumer penetration ready" from a marketing point of view. Put them on shelves in retail outlets, Windows and Mac will outsell (almost exclusively) at this time.

I think Dell does need a Vista option (and one that works well on speed), including for one other simple questions - (1) how does iTunes stack up on XP (and how long will it be supported there) - yup, in the end it's not the OS but the availability of common, easily accessible, and highly marketed programs that are available that will help see (my arguement against Symbia becoming a strong phone platform against new Linux based phone software). Remember, we're talking (if we're talking about creating a device which isn't a phone, but needs to sell millions or multi-millions of devices) a market trained toward LCDC (Lowest Common Denominator Consumers) full of all sorts of FUD - real or not.

Anyways, I ramble a bit, but I think from both (a) Home Consumer and (b) corporate support on 3 year life cycle that my requirement for Vista isn't all that off.

Hmm ... think about what you just posted chris_b. If people were really so worried about a familiar OS why does Dell recommend Vista? Bearing in mind Vista does reportedly do quite a few thing differently from XP. The fact of the matter is people are more familiar with XP than they are with Vista. Linux with Gnome or KDE would be more familiar to an XP user than Vista.

What I think about Vista is that it's just too full on the fat to run on such small systems. I don't see the point in the whole form factor if it takes an age to boot up. Being physically tiny alone just isn't enough. The OS and the applications software needs to be trim and responsive. Otherwise you might as well just go buy a full fat notebook. You don't need to be portable when all your doing is booting up.

What OS are Dell planning to use chris_b? I'm betting it's either Windows XP or Windows Vista. More likely Vista. I would recommend that Dell uses Ubuntu or some other version of Linux. Windows is just too fat.

canadaboy all the talk coming out of Redmond at the moment is Windows 7. Not Vista. The rumor is Windows 7 will be out sometime in 2009. If you buy a Vista system now then it's basically redundant before it arrives at your door. As OSs go Vista was still born.

So to summarize:

* For cost = advantage Linux.
* For familiarity = advantage XP.
* For minimal hardware requirements = advantage Linux.
* For performance = advantage Linux.

I'll be oh so disappointed if Dell makes this a Vista-only product.

aikiwolfie: XP itself isn't too fat, it's the antivirus and external firewall you need to run.

aikiwolfie - Window 7 is an expansion and modification of Vista code base - so the underlying drivers, support and other material will work cross release, unlike XP/Vista. And in any case, are you then suggesting that I think XP is good because it will be 2 versions out from standard inside the corporate life cycle time?

@canadaboy: "Window 7 is an expansion and modification of Vista code base"

Not expansion.
Windows 7 is a *reduction* and modification of Vista.
Basically they're making it "modular" in that you can turn off all the parts of Vista that are too bloated or too broken.

(Hope that didn't sound too negative - this is exactly what they should be doing, and should indeed give them better stability and performance.)

LOL @jmxz -
no, that didn't sound negative. What you're suggesting is "Windows 7, from all accounts, is going to be a minor upgrade to Vista... as has been reported previously, Windows 7 is likely to include a feature that, at least at one point, was called the 'Component Delivery System' which is expected to allow users to install the pieces of Windows that they want and need in a more user-configurable way."

I just call change to functionality "expansion", as in the functionality (ability to likely partition core code sections from install) an expansion as to how Vista works. Literal use of expansion as code, the answer would be yes - to include partition code, and no - end user install may be smaller.

But in the end, reinforces that Window 7 is not a break in driver/support to Vista as Vista is to XP, and so still (Vista) remains a better choice in my personal circumstances to support for a period of years.

I agree that there is an honest question about power/portability with Vista on a mico-computer, but for my personal circumstances, I'm preferring the forward-support Vista offers, than the XP support which has slowed and will come to a stop at some time. It just seems Vista will be easier to support, even under the lower performance issues. And that's something I'm not sold on will be as bad as envisioned - I'm not having the mico supporting *crisis* :-) any time soon, and the primary use is Office applications, network and VPN support, web, and other apps which don't have a foot print I'm too concerned over. If it's a 2 min. start up (un-tweaked), that may very well be ok (not slick, not awesome, but acceptable for other support issues).

In part, Ubuntu would be very good (if given some support on VPN and other vendor specific software needed), and it's a condideration, but when the comparison is XP and Vista, I think I'm pretty much leaning Vista than XP for support, integration, and further application/driver support.

The best part of this worry is directly related to vendors that have already (at Vista launch non-the-less) abandoned driver support for older products like HP (I have a sadness for HP, and Creative on these issues) who didn't build forward compatible drivers for existing hardware (scanners), nor back-ward compatible in several cases. This will only extend, and so with these vendors I'm gaurenteed of forward compatibility with new hardware for the Vista OS, but not with older OSs.

That's really mucth the crux - I think holding XP is good for functional performance, but my concerns over driver, network and hardware compatibility over 3 years is a stronger concern.

Ahhh, in any case, Ubuntu good (footprint, features, geek shine), Windows good (ubiquitious, vendor standard, accessible, user familiarity) and my final thoughts are for specific reasons, not for the belief that it's good to attack one OS for another.

@canadaboy it doesn't matter if Windows 7 is a continuation of Vista or an expansion or a reduction of the Vista code. Microsoft are touting Windows 7 as a new product. Which means if you want Windows 7 you'll need to pay for it. Considering the cost of Vista, I'd advise people to wait and see what Microsoft does.

I goes without saying it's entirely in Microsofts and it's partners interests to state clearly the expected arrival date of Windows 7. I recently advised a friend at work not to buy a new PC just yet. Microsoft are hinting Windows 7 will be out 2009. My advice is wait and see. Another year on XP isn't going to kill anybody. It could save them some money though. Windows does tend to be on the rather expensive side.

OK here's my take on the OS issue in terms of an ultaportable. I have mostly had windows OS on all my devices including my cell phone. I did try an ubuntu live cd once and have been meaning to try again. (I lost the CD and my drive is having issues so I'm waiting for Dell to determine the problem but that is another story.) I recently switched to a blackberry phone from my windows mobile phone so I think that gives me a little insight into OSs running on lower spec'd processors.

I have used windows mobile 5 on a cingular 8125 with a 200 MHz TI OMAP850 processor and it was a dog of a device that needed constant rebooting. I upgraded to a cingular 8525 with windows mobile 6 and a faster 400-MHz Samsung processor. I figured the new OS would be better and with double the processor speed I would be happy, WRONG. The 8525 was just as much of a dog and the new OS didn't improve anything it was just a new skin on the old OS. I became frustrated and finally got a blackberry pearl 8130, I have no clue what the processor is as they don't advertise it. The pearl is much faster and more reliable. The start up time is minimal compared to windows mobile and I haven't had to do a single reboot in months. It was a pain to learn a new OS but after a couple of days I got the hang of it and find the little bit of frustration was worth it.

While I like the way Vista looks it was also a pain to learn where they hid all my settings and such. I like the OS's inclusion of the search in the start menu as that is just about the only way I can find my settings. :D Vista is a pig of an OS that takes forever to load on my 1.83 ghz Intel processor so I can only imagine how slow it will be on an Atom. My fear is that I just might need to turn it on as soon as I get up so I can use it by the time I finish showering and getting dressed in the morning. If MS is going to be the OS in this system they need to build one from scratch that is mobile but still looks like Vista otherwise I say stick linux in it so maybe we can actually use it.

Everyday I am loosing my love for MS when it comes to their OS. Yes it is familiar and that is a big draw that keeps people returning but they will only put up with the poor quality for so long before they switch. That is part of the reason, I think, that Apple is doing so well and Ubuntu is selling better that expected. I was a ford driver for most of my adult life due to familiarity. I overlooked the quality issues due to the comfort of knowing my vehicle so well. I finally came to my senses and switched to Toyota over a year ago. I have been kicking myself for having waited so long to make the change.

Well said, Jerv. One extra thing - a Windows "familiarity" can probably be built onto a quick/stable linux-core-based OS. I'd actually encourage Dell to go that route. Look at gOS.. etc - they could do mostly distributed apps anyways, it shouldn't need to be all that fast.

It's actually possible to make Gnome and KDE look and function like a Windows XP desktop. People need to remember Linux and it's associated desktop environments are highly configurable.

Aside from that navigating around the Gnome desktop really is very easy. All your applications are in the "Applications" menu, "Places" holds quick links to your documents and stuff and "System" holds all the configuration utilities. It's not rocket science.

Interesting article on the Atom processor revealed the folowing quote.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3276&p=19

"What's even more impressive is the Atom test platform I saw running. Intel showed me an Atom test motherboard running Windows Vista and Unreal Tournament 2004 at smooth frame rates, without so much as a heatsink on the CPU. The surface of the CPU was around 35C and it did not even need a heatsink. "

the UT engine must have absolutely killed the GPU, then
still - impressive :)

That Fujitsu laptop looks very ugly to me, whereas the simplicity and clean lines of the HP laptop are very appealing. I have heard people complain about the touchpad having buttons to the side, but that seems like something which a tiny bit of practice would become unobtrusive.

I'm very interested in seeing a Dell laptop in the same vein as HP's offering, and you could hardly go wrong imitating HP's design choices. The nearly full-sized keyboard is a huge boon, as many adult computer users will be loath to consign their wrists to a tiny keyboard like so many "ultra-mobile" devices have. If you can offer it with Ubuntu pre-installed and compete on price, I'll be a customer for sure!

After looking around I like the look of the Kohjinsha better.

The Specs and price are up:
http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/hp-2133-mini-note/4505-3121_7-32912224.html?t...
(1) with the exception of a more powerful processor, it seems perfect for me
(2) bonus pluses would be N wireless, true screen 1280x800 (vs. 1,280x768)
(3) Price points seem really competitve, with the $499 smacked directly as Eee PC

Thoughts at the moment, I'm really like the HP and if they update the chip for more power (that Atom link from Jervis961 looks awefully awesome), they really would have my money in a moment (barring a DELL competitor :-) )

The keyboard is a huge factor (I'm 6'4 so the Nokia 810 isn't for me, and the Shift is too tight, moving up I've been tempted by the Asus, but the HP looks good for the cubby fingers I have).

So - we've got interesting price points (which I think Dell can compete with, not necessiarily on price, but maybe feature / chip set), a functional small format computer (computer, not windows mobile device) with a swack of stuff built in, and the option for Vista. Just the chip. Just need to wait for the right chip. Ahhhh. We're actually so very nicely close on a really great machine, and I highly look forward to Dell's product response on this. My Inspiron 9400 which I want to upgrade needs a little sibling. Preferably with the same hardware DNA. :-)

canadaboy, did you read the review of the HP on notebook review that I posted earlier? There is also the boot up time comparison that was interesting.

The more I think about it the more I worry about the price point. Just in today's paper there is an Acer advertised for $449 that blows away the specs on these computers.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Acer-Extensa-EX5620-4025-15-4-Widescreen-Lapto...

Granted it isn't as small and portable but if people are looking at value for the money there may be a problem.

If people were looking for cheap computers, they wouldn't be getting the Eee. There's the gBook, the Zonbu notebook, the Vostro notebooks are pretty cheap, oh and did I forget to mention eBay?

I was just wondering what the market is for this. While I was all for it at first, when I actually stop and think about what I want in my next notebook the more I realize that this isn't going to cut it. Now a person with lots of disposable income may snap one up for travel at $399 and keep a regular notebook as well, but I don't see this as going mass market. I thought about one for my kids but they would complain about it being slower than what they already have (5 years old or older systems) and the small monitor size so I would be more apt to buy them something like the Acer for a little more money. I just don't know if they can meet a price point that will sway enough people into the purchase and still be able to make a profit on it.

Unless they hit a $200 - $300 price with decent specs and a DVD player in it I don't see this as being more than a niche market. Now they may surprise us and add a mini projector in it so it can be a small portable presentation device which I think would have more of a market. I'm still open to the idea but skeptical at the moment.

The market is mostly people who travel I think. People who need a laptop but don't need a super computer on their lap. These machines will allow people to send and receive e-mail, brows the web, watch the odd video file and do some office work on the go. I'm thinking the people who might buy this product are the people that bought Blackberrys. People who actually have the capacity to learn a new OS.

Here is an interesting article on the Asus U2E, an expensive Ultra portable with good looks and options.

http://anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=3286



They have lots of pictures of the computer disassembled and a good commentary on Ultra portables in general.