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Reveal Truth About Microsoft License / Promotion Deals

190 points posted to Advertising and Marketing, Dell by gear Apr 27

It is now an open secret that Dell PCs sold with Ubuntu and "No OS" except for servers are more expensive than PCs with a Windows license.

It is also an open secret that Dell is not featuring Ubuntu and Windows XP prominently in accordance with customer demands.

It is also assumed that Dell is under a non-disclosure agreement that prohibits the disclosure of terms Microsoft imposes on the OEM licenses, and also the terms for participating in their promotional programs and other inducements to be an exclusive Microsoft shop.

However, in less than a year, the Administration will change in Washington, and with it, the potential for renewed interest in the anti-competitive behavior of Microsoft and their illegal efforts to extend their monopoly to other markets.

i.e. hardwiring in Microsoft search in Vista and making it very inconvenient for a user to use an alternative search engine, or imposing their Internet Explorer Browser by making Microsoft / Windows update incompatible with all other browsers and not offering customers a choice of alternatives like Firefox when you buy their operating system.

Here are my speculations:

Dell is incentivized by Microsoft to participate in these anti-competitive schemes by the following methods:

- Install Microsoft Vista in lieu of any other operating system

- pays a license fee to Microsoft for every PC sold regardless of whether it ships with a MIcrosoft OS installed.

- rewarded for not pre-installing Firefox

- prevented from not offering "Media Direct" or a equivalent system or making this DRM scheme optional.

- incentivized to offer no viable option to Office except for Microsoft Office Live even when viable options like Googledocs, Open Office, etc. exist and are 'out there'.

- incentivized to bundle Microsoft Works with every PC sold

- prevented from disclosing that Dell is a willing party to these efforts to illegally extend Microsoft's monopoly and participating in anti-competitive measures

Under such circumstances, Dell may have considerable legal liability and exposure to anti-trust laws by colluding with Microsoft.

While it may be a year before these issues come up in the USA, the issue may come up in Europe, where the EU has an active ongoing investigation of Microsoft going on.

I would hate to see Dell fined by the EU like Microsoft.

Please start revealing the truth --- because if the terms are as I speculated above, it likely will be the same terms Microsoft give to every other major manufacturer of PCs.

jervis961
Apr 27
Dell cannot be fined for signing an agreement brought on because of monopolistic tactics by MS. If speculation is correct then it can be speculated that Dell only signed agreements due to intimidation and not cooperation.
aikiwolfie
Apr 27
Virgin Atlantic and British Airways were involved in a price fixing scheme. They were heavily investigated by both US and European authorities after a Virgin Atlantic exec exposed the scheme. So if it's true Dell are colluding in some way with Microsoft to illegally extend Microsoft's monopoly in the PC OS market then Dell really could be fined. They are involved and thus have an obligation to report any wrong doing or illegal activity.

I like Dell hardware. I hope for their sake everything is aboveboard and legit.
mkmaster78
Apr 28
Antitrust laws are immoral and wrong! BTW its very easy in Vista to change the default search and Windows Update in Vista is browser indepent, it runs as part of the control panel. And as always you are free to put whatever browser you like on their, but many us already know Firefox to be a buggy, bloated piece of malware that is not likely to change.

EDIT: Sorry about the rant, but these ignorant anti-Microsft posts are just getting really on my nerves.
aikiwolfie
Apr 28
LOL well if you must rant at least rant accurately. Now if you want to talk about buggy, lets talk about SP1 crashing on installation. I mean the very least Microsoft could do is make sure it could install it's self before it crashed. Right?
aikiwolfie
Apr 28
In what way are anti-trust laws immoral? They are there to force each player in a given market to play by the rules. Like or not if you want a stable competitive market that helps a countries economy grow you need rules. Things we can and can't do.
okroger104
Apr 28
These post do get a little funny (lack of business understanding), arrogant (as in "in accordance with customer demands") And quite presumptive. But at least the OP said, "these are my speculations." Yet you never see all that much about Apple - the greatest PC monopoly in existence.

BTW, Dell wouldn't face any liability for not giving away free stuff. Anti-competitive behavior only applies to companies trying to make a profit but are barred from doing so by another competitor. The liability would rest squarely with Microsoft because Dell is not stopping the end user from installing free software on the end user's system.
mkmaster78
Apr 28
@aikiwolfie: everything I've seen where SP1 crashed it was due to issues that Microsoft made known as issues at launch of SP1, so thats not something you can call them out on. Antitrust laws are immoral because they infringe on individual rights. A company, any company, is the property of an individual, or possibly many individuals as the case may be, and as such, the government has NO right whatsoever to say what a person can and cannot do with that property, outside of preventing the use of direct or indirect force against another (eg. direct, preventing someone from dumping nuclear waste in anothers front yard giving them radiation poisoning, indirect, defrauding a person by failing to meet legally binding contractual obligations). A monolopy, so long as it not a coercive monopoly which can only be created by the support of the government, cannot truly control a market, if they make an inferior product, than others may come in and make a better one. Nothing destroys a large sloppy corporation as quickly as a bunch of small, efficients ones. That said, Microsoft earned its position by offering a product with large mass appeal and solid advertising. It is to be commended for its efforts, not condemned. However, this is as far as I will go with this discussion, Ideastorm is not a place for the soap box or the ivory tower.
okroger104
Apr 28
Well you made some good points, mkmaster78. And you're right, it's not a monopoly that is the issue but fair business practices being the issue, A monopoly only gives one the ability to "amplify" unfair business practices. And Microsoft has been slapped on occasion for having violated them.
.
aikiwolfie
Apr 28
mkmaster78 Firefox has a comprehensive and publicly available bug/fix list. Nothing hidden. As I said. If you want to rant then at least do it accurately,
jervis961
Apr 28
aikiwolfie - about the Virgin and Atlantic example you gave. That was 2 competitors that agreed to fix pricing high so they both made money. It was a deal they both agreed to and entered without the other making any threats. In Dell's case MS is famous for threatening to up prices or not sell to companies if they don't do what MS says. There is a big difference in the situations.
mkmaster78
Apr 28
@jervis961, aikiwolfie: Microsoft is and should be free to make any demands about the sale of their software that they wish, with this one thing to keep in mind, that at any time, a vendor may say no to it and a competitor can come to fill the void. Microsoft has no power to truly force anyone to buy or distribute their software. If that were the case, do you think linux or Mac OS would exist?
jervis961
Apr 28
So what viable option does Dell have to windows? Apple won't let anyone touch their OS and Linux isn't truly viable as an option to the general public yet. If Honda switched to using engines built by some guy in his garage, would people still buy them? While Dell may have the "option" to say no, it would lead to the company losing more money that if they just accept what MS offers.
winoffice
Apr 28
That's bashing Microsoft...DEMOTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aikiwolfie
Apr 28
In the Virgin Atlantic and BA example jervis I think the agreement was between two execs. One lead by the other. I don't think it was something that was happen at boardroom level even. I think similar things probably happen in Microsoft. The difference being the people at the very top of Microsoft seem to have the same attitude and seem to encourage such behavior.
kelly_h
Apr 29
Hey Gear,

I can't speak to Dell's policy regarding Microsoft - simply because I don't know. I work in marketing. But I do have a question - where in this post was an idea? (Ideastorm) :) There are over 100 lawyers just in the building I sit in alone - I'm pretty sure Dell is above ground on this one, but thank you for the concern.

Also - I just did research on our Ubuntu and No-OS products yesterday - they account for less than 1% of the machines sold. If more people demand Ubuntu from Dell - there's a greater chance of getting it. The fact of the matter is that from our research - the consumer wants Windows.
okroger104
Apr 29
Thanks for the feedback Kelly. Very diplomatically put.
mkmaster78
Apr 29
@kelly_h: thanks for the feedback
aikiwolfie
Apr 29
Kelly if you feed a monkey bananas every feeding time all it's life, what do you think it will expect at feeding time? Now change the bananas for oranges and watch the monkey take a step back looking more than a little confused.

We're in a situation right now where most people using a PC have never know anything other than Windows. And most of those people won't have known anything pre-Windows 95/98. Possibly even XP. In fact most people are so ignorant to the extent they won't even know what Windows is.

I might be over stating peoples ignorance a little but not by much. Thanks for the feed back kelly_h. Skive off work more and contribute more often ;op
zmjjmz
Apr 29
Actually, to build on aikiwolfie's analogy, if you had a room full of bananas and then took 4 dusty oranges and hid them in a corner, do you think a monkey would find or eat those oranges?
Also, I believe Michael Dell said that Ubuntu sales were strong.
And the idea was to release info regarding your inner dealings with MS. Sure it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it's been proven that MS does carry out some of these practices.
And Canonical, Sun, Google, and Mozilla are for-profit companies, even if the product they offer (Ubuntu, OpenOffice, Google, Firefox) are free. (Though Sun Canonical and Google get money from their free software offerings, just not in the usual way.)
jervis961
Apr 29
Eventually one monkey would find the oranges and might try one. Maybe the monkey will try to smash all the bananas to force the other monkeys to switch to eating oranges.

The question is which is worse the person only giving out bananas or the monkey trying to force his views on the others? While you can say the person only giving out bananas is worse the monkeys wouldn't know the difference. The monkey forcing his views could also be seen as denying the others of choice even if oranges are better.

It all comes down to choice and Dell is trying to walk the line by giving us monkeys the bananas and slipping in some oranges when nobody is looking. Personally I'm prefer bananas kind of monkey right now who is just the orange to see the difference. I didn't need Dell to give me the orange, I went and got it for myself. Just don't ask me to try a grapefruit. :D
okroger104
Apr 29
Gotta agree with you there Jervis. Dell offers Linux. They are the only major computer outfit to offer it to consumers. All this clamoring from a small group amounts to political cheerleading for their OS of choice. Less than 1% of sales says it all. Yet probably 50% of idea submissions have something to do with Linux.

Imagine if Dell didn't have this website? Where would the Linux fans be? Who would listen to them? Give 'em a voice?

And yep, it's less than 1% of sales. When Dell issued a statement about Linux sales, they said it was going according to projections, not that they were "strong.". Linux is NOT ready for the masses in the US. Walmart learned the hard way.

These conspiracy theory posts would have some legs if and only if there were actual meaningful demand for Linux on consumer PCs. I mean, look at what Dell is doing concerning XP. More demand for XP than for LInux for them to even bother to look for a loophole.

Anyway, this convo has been had a number of times on this site. It probably wont be the last.
zmjjmz
Apr 29
I'm not sure you either read or understood the analogy I made with the oranges or bananas.
There are two theories I have for the lack of Dellbuntu sales.
a) It's not attractive to the Ubuntu fans because there are already two other OEMs dedicated to providing Linux and have better tech support. In addition, they have wider ranges of choices and cheaper prices (ZaReason sells the Shuttle kpc with Ubuntu for a mere $220!) and don't have strange glitches where entries for Ubuntu computers will randomly disappear from the site for a week.
b) Dell isn't marketing Ubuntu enough for the average buyer to of even heard of Dell offering Ubuntu.
jervis961
Apr 29
I was mostly commenting towards aikiwolfie. Never heard of ZaReason before, do they only sell linux computers?
zmjjmz
Apr 29
www.zareason.com
Linux only, yes. In fact, now that they stopped carrying Everex computers, they're Ubuntu only too.
gear
Apr 30
"Also - I just did research on our Ubuntu and No-OS products yesterday - they account for less than 1% of the machines sold. "

I have no doubt that Linux is oversold by the demand for it on this website --- the fact is demand did not materialize.

I also have no doubt that the consumer demand is there for Windows XP, preferably HOME which is the least expensive, or Professional, but not at inflated prices that come with a Vista Business Bundle.

The fact is, XP Home is not offered. XP Professional is offered by at inflated prices in a limited range of machines.

No OS is mostly offered on Servers, but not offered in the Home, Small Business, etc. except for servers.

-----------

As for the number of lawyers in the building..... I am 100% certain that Microsoft has more lawyers per windows license sold than DELL worldwide.

That didn't stop them from being hit with whopping fines repeatedly by the EU.

Answer this question: Why can't I buy a Dell configure to order Inspiron 15xx with no OS and a reduction in price reflecting the cost of the Microsoft Vista license?

I cannot buy an Inspiron 1525 with no OS for certain --- I checked.

Why?

PS, I bought the Inspiron 1525, installed my own copy (legit) of Windows XP on it, and it works absolutely fine --- there is zero hardware reason why it cannot be done.
jervis961
Apr 30
So what is the idea in this idea?
aikiwolfie
Apr 30
Well zmjjmz got my meaning. I wouldn't want Dell to force Ubuntu on anybody. But neither should they be hiding it away. The UK site is getting worse. Not better. In spite of Ubuntu doing well. The opensource PCs link is now hidden away in a drop down menu.

Now if Dell don't want to reveal their agreements with Microsoft that's their business. If everything is above board then Dell shouldn't stand to lose anything buy making Ubuntu more visible on their web sites. And that's what makes people suspicious. Dell have no good reason to hide Linux. But they're doing it anyway.
jervis961
Apr 30
I recently installed Ubuntu on my inspiron 6000 and ran into some issues that I needed to work out. First the installer locked up my system. Then after a successful 2nd attempt and a few reboots the system suddenly started booting me into busybox. I did some research and fixed it within an hour or so but it made me realize why Ubuntu isn't given front page billing. Sure I was able to fix it on my own but how many regular buyers can really (or want to) do it.

Since the install was OK for a while before the boot problem occurred it could possibly happen on any Dell system with Ubuntu. If it did happen, the call centers would be flooded by people calling on Dell to fix the problem. Once the tech would start to tell them to edit the boot code they would flip out and demand dell send a tech or arrange for shipping. Try to imagine the amount of money that would be lost fixing such a problem.

I think Dell is trying to push things along but there is only so far you can safely go. Recently Dell announced they are pushing suppliers to make components more linux friendly. Give them some time guys, it isn't just Dell that needs to change it is the entire industry and the consumers too.
okroger104
Apr 30
Yep Jervis. But oddly the Linux fans don't seem to want to admit this simple fact about Linux. It's not for everyone, yet. Especially in the US.

Dell doesn't want to openly sell a product that is incompatible with its core home and small business consumer. Walmart tried it and had to discontinue Linux PC sales for that very reason. The whole repository thing is great. But what if you're not on broadband? Most people buy their software online or in a store. Can't do that with Linux.

Those interested in Linux, know where to find it on Dell's website. Word went out last year that Dell is selling Linux PCs.

Most Linux users are, in the spirit of open source, mostly DIYers. They build their own rigs. So they really don't *need* Dell to sell them anything. (Other than a notebook, but read forum after forum. People install Linux on their notebooks all by themselves and share and solve their difficulties.)

All this Microsoft conspiracy talk is getting long in the tooth.
wallyhorse
Apr 30
That it is:

And if there was a conspiracy, it would not only be Dell, but also HP, Lenovo and a good number of other PC manufacturers.

The fact is, most people are used to Windows, and until one of these other companies is able to step up and offer a compatable product popular with the mainstream, WIndows will continue to dominate.
zmjjmz
Apr 30
jervis961- The install problem wouldn't be experienced by buyers of systems with Ubuntu pre-installed, and chances are that problem wouldn't occur on a supported Dell system. (By the way, when the LiveCD installer doesn't work, try and go with the Alternate installer.)

okroger104: You can buy software for Linux silly. And not many Linux users I know built their own systems, you might be referring to Arch or Gentoo users (which comprise ~10% of the Linux community). And it's true that many people aren't on broadband, but judging by the size of the Dell site I'd say it'd be hard to get to the website on 56k.

wallyhorse: Because Windows is closed source, the chances of any company having a completely compatible product are truly slim. That said, it currently looks like WINE is moving far ahead and may offer mostly bug free compatibility sometime in the next ten years.
okroger104
Apr 30
Buy Linux software @ BestBuy, Circuit city, etc, where regular folk shop? Nah, not yet.

As far as building their own rigs, I'll concede that point. But they are often savvy enough to buy components and install them. Especially in the days when it was less troublesome to just go out and buy a Linux compatible component than trying to get what you already had to work.
zmjjmz
Apr 30
But if you conceded that 90% if Linux users aren't building their own rigs, then I'd like to point out that they'd appreciate buying a pre-installed system.
The only problem is Dell isn't being competitive enough compared to Linux only vendors such as ZaReason and system76, so they don't hold as much appeal as those companies to Linux users. On the other hand, normal people go ahead and try to buy computers from Dell, not unknown untrusted companies such as those mentioned above. So if Linux were to take a stronger hold (note: not complete dominance) in the operating system market, then it would have to be sold through Dell, and they would have to market it and make less compromises when it comes to it.

And these days with Linux, most hardware doesn't get harder to get working than copying a bunch of commands into a terminal and downloading a script or two.
okroger104
Apr 30
Agreed. Only thing, Dell is first tier and ZAReason and System76 are third tier resellers. Tier competes with tier.

I think perhaps a letter writing campaign or blogsphere directed at HP to offer Ubuntu might get things heated up.
zmjjmz
Apr 30
HP will offer SLED, and I don't want to start a distro flamewar. I prefer Debian based systems though.
aikiwolfie
May 1
@jervis: your Inspiron 6000 issue is no different to the problems Vista has faced over the past year. Including SP1 crashing on installation. Or IE crashing, or the infamous blue screen of death. Dell still recommends Windows Vista though. Neither OS is perfect. But Ubuntu runs perfectly on my M1330n and my XPS 720.
aikiwolfie
May 1
@kroger104 watch this video. The vast majority of the people Dell wants to do business with are out side the US.
jervis961
May 1
OK funny story.

My Vista is locking up on me while Ubuntu is working great. This morning Vista won't connect online, locks up when opening anything other than task manager and is pretty much not responding. Ubuntu is working fine so I will be doing some diagnostics and maybe a fresh install of Vista today. I just hope I can save my files. I would dump Vista all together and switch to Ubuntu if I didn't have so much money tied up in software. Unless Office and photoshop work in Ubuntu. Anyone know?
gear
May 1
Just a few points of information here:

- It is not illegal to be a monopoly --- there are many legal monopolies like your local electric utility, water utility, etc.

- It IS ILLEGAL to extend a monopoly into another market. i.e. extend the OS monopoly into the browser market, downloaded music market, etc.

- There are business practices that are regulated. For example, if you hold more than 50% market share, you cannot KNOWINGLY underbid your competitors.

- With respect to whether Dell is doing anything ilegal.... well... if Dell executives personally received kickbacks to keep out competing products, that is an issue, but not under anti-trust, but under SEC rules.

While I have no specific knowledge of illegal activities at DELL with respect to Microsoft, it was widely believed many years ago (before Microsoft OS became the dominant product) that Microsoft licenses required a shop to pay a royalty for every machine sold regardless of what OS is installed. Otherwise, the vendor got a much higher price per license.

So tell us, Dell.

Is that arrangement still valid? Do you pay Microsoft a royalty for every machine sold without an OS? Or with Linux? Or with FreeDOS?

That will explain a lot of things about why you are doing things a certain way.
zmjjmz
May 1
jervis961: Photoshop CS2 and Office 2007 should work well with WINE (but I recommend you use Crossover Office because you don't seem like one who'd like to mess around with it).
If you don't want to pay 50$ or so for Crossover though, you can get WINE working with a few Howtos.
@gear: Is Yahoo! technically a competitor? (note that MS won't be buying Yahoo! anyways...)
kelly_h
May 1
I work in email marketing on the consumer side (You know those promotional emails you get? They're from me :) ) I tried to take the Ubuntu idea and be able to send an email centered around it. 1% of sales. I think you know what the answer was. I can't convince higher ups to remove a system that will sell 800 units in an email for one that might sell 10.

I'm doing my best to get an Ubuntu/No OS offering into emails. Like okroger104 said, we can't force it on people who don't want to use it. You can lead a horse to water, etc.

I also have a 1525 - and also loaded XP on it when I got it. We're not heartless or different over here - we want a lot of the same things, it's all a matter of what I can get implemented and what I can't.

And gear - I still don't know the answer to your question. I think it's about 10 levels above my pay grade :)
aikiwolfie
May 1
AH HA! So you're the culprit!!! The world spam network has been cracked! She admitted it right here! :op

Maybe you could just convince higher ups to let you put a teeny weeny wee tiny Ubuntu banner at the bottom of an e-mail. Just a wee one. BTW have you tried Ubuntu? It's really good! And FREE!!! :oD
aaron_h
May 1
Couple things to mention, 1% of Dell sales is still a nice number and it means we are probably selling enough to keep it a viable alternative, but it is no where close to critical mass. And most likely, the cost of a No OS/Ubuntu computer is more linked to the fact that we cannot get Google, AOL, Earthink, Sonic, etc. software on them, so there is nothing to offset the cost. Yes, I know, you like not having that but those companies help pay the bills. Plus it costs more per unit sold to test drivers, test software, convince vendors to create drivers, etc.
TANSTAAFL
gear
May 1
@Dell Anon:

You raise a very fair point --- that you can't get the $$$ get AOL, earthlink, etc. pre-installed if you go NO OS.

Fair enough. Offer ALL customers the option of NO Junk software installed for a price.

i.e. For $20 EXTRA we will deliver you a virginal machine that have never been molested by Sonic, etc. and you can guarantee that all the stuff in the registry is from either Microsoft or your doing, not some code from someone that got to your PC first and inflicted Symantec on it.

As for more cost to test drivers, software, convince vendors to create drivers, etc. that argument simply do not apply to Windows XP.

I know of very few pieces of hardware that is Windows Vista Only at the drivers level. No hardware manufacturer I know is dumb enough to write drivers only for Vista.

Your argument applies to Linux --- fair enough. Charge those noisy people for the cost.

As for the 1% argument --- I completely agree with you. The Linux people are vociferous, kind of like the NRA of the PC business. They screamed for Linux, and at the end, not even everyone who submitted one vote bought 1 PC from Dell.

But when it actually comes down to delivering you market share, it is the silent majority that prefers Windows XP, or preferably, a version of XP that is slightly updated (i.e. configured for LCD monitors by default, support Flash caching, improve power saving, but without the DRM crap in it.) is where the money is.

I quite frankly think you have gone as far as you can go on Linux unless someone is going to step up to the plate and make Linux look and work like Windows XP/Office 2003 right out of the box.

That company cannot be Dell.... it would have to be someone outside of the existing PC box makers to avoid that conflict with Microsoft.

Kelly... I sympathize with you.

Michael Dell is a very good leader. But he has his hands full with many people in the organization who do not understand that the things that got them to the top is now passe, and they run the risk of becoming AOL, Earthlink, or any other numbers of roadkill in the tech business.

For years, I watched Dell (under the departed CEO) run the company into the ground with idiotic cost cuts - like shortening the cord on chargers - that pissed off the customers who suffered silently.

Even today, it doesn't take a genius in retail to see that Dell machines at the retail stores lack "curb appeal" compared to HP, Sony, and Apple. Is it a surprise that they all do better than Dell?

If you are really interested --- email me and I will give you some private observations about some of the issues Dell is facing with HP at retail.
zmjjmz
May 1
"The Linux people are vociferous, kind of like the NRA of the PC business. They screamed for Linux, and at the end, not even everyone who submitted one vote bought 1 PC from Dell."
Uh, was that sarcasm?
Maybe Dell should wait and see for three years when us Linux users think it's finally time for a new computer.
And there is trial/bloatware that can be put on (and easily removed from) Linux.
kelly_h
May 1
@aikiwolfie - I'm trying the banner angle now. I think I've finally worn the right people down. Of course... you'll all have to subscribe to see it. ;)

And we're trying more than promotional emails, we've been running a newsletter test to a really small portion of our audience. Trying to convince the higher ups that you guys care :P
aikiwolfie
May 1
@gear. First you need to go read the Linux threads. Dell didn't deliver on what Linux supporters wanted. Which is why some didn't buy it. Linux supporters asked for Linux to be sold as an "option" along side Windows on all Dell PCs. What we got was Linux on two or three models hidden away in a deep dark recess of Dell.com.

But in spite of that Dell claims Linux is doing well. And XP supporters haven't exactly been silent. ;o)

Coolies kelly_h! I recommend you for promotion to CEO! ;o)
gear
May 3
@aik

Dell will not offer Linux side by side on all models until the demand for it materializes. At 1% of sales, it is tiny.

I don't think we can get Dell to reveal the numbers, but I am willing to bet XP outsells Linux by far.

Sure, there can be a better linux only page rather than a "deep recess", but the reality is, 99% of users want something else.

Critical mass would be if 10% of shipping units go with Linux... at which point, it justifies putting it on most of the line. Not now.

Now, the real issue is I still believe Dell is paying a license fee to MIcrosoft for every Linux and No OS box (except servers) shipped.

Nobody from Dell or Microsoft has contradicted me.
jervis961
May 3
They haven't admitted it either.
aikiwolfie
May 3
Well I don't ever remember there being an overwhelming public demand for other recent Dell products. Like say the XPS One. It wasn't a big issue until Dell showed us the concept. They advertised the product and generated demand. But with Linux systems it's different. They're hidden away. I personally don't buy this "consumer demand" excuse.

Asus produced a Linux based system. Advertised it. Sold it. Guess what? Consumer demand is high enough for Asus to come back with a sequel. In fact consumer demand was so high Microsoft muscled in on the act and decided to extend the life of XP Home Edition purely to protect their market share because Vista won't run on the Eee PC. Now Asus are offering 40% of the Eee PC 2 with Linux and 60% with Windows XP Home Edition.

The XPS One was featured fairly prominently on the UK web site. I wonder how many have actually been sold? How high is the consumer demand for that system? When consumer demand for Linux is high enough for Microsoft to be worried, I say it's high enough.
gear
May 4
The reality is while the Asus eEee PC was an overall success and earned profit margins twice what Taiwan OEMs normally get from PCs, the flip side was that its foray into retail was a disaster in the USA.

Something in the order of 70% of the Linux based Asus eEees were returned by your typical Best Buy customer. The geeks loved it, but that is a tiny slice of demand.

Many of the geeks who bought it then put their own copy of XP on it.

The point is, Linux is a niche product, for now.
zmjjmz
May 4
Eh, can you source that information?
aikiwolfie
May 5
Okay. Got sources for that information gear? As for this US thing. You people aren't listening to what Michael Dell is saying in interviews. 76% of Dells target market is outside the US. South America, Asia and Europe are all moving in the open source direction. Dell is openly offering Novell Suse Enterprise Linux in China.

The US might be Dells home market but it's no longer their primary target. The rest of the world is moving on. It's time the US caught up.
okroger104
May 5
Well, there it is again. Low cost units + Desktop Linux. The interview talks about Dell making a foray into the low cost market in developing countries. it's just further reinforcing the idea that Linux is best suited to "cheap" underpowered systems. That's becoming its niche in the desktop space. That needs to change if it's going to take on Apple and Microsoft. Especially in the business desktop OS space.

As far as American consumers are concerned, since nearly all of the computer manufacturers are based in the US as well as most of the software developers, the price of computers and software is cheaper here than anywhere else in relative terms. Range of choice is also greater.

Then there's also this: a good deal of anti-Microsoft sentiment also rests with anti-American sentiment. And finally, since the rest of the world doesn't really produce all that in the way of much technological products, they now have something to cheer about. US companies control the server markets with practically no meaningful foreign competition. They also lead in the personal computer market by a very large margin.

But at the end of the day, Linux on the desktop worldwide is still in its infancy with only about 2% of the OS market share. It's growing sure. But has a LONG way to go before it reaches true relevancy unlike its server market share which is about 45%.
aikiwolfie
May 5
Or you could say Linux eliminates the need for power hungry wasteful and overly expensive hardware necessary for a bloated poorly written resource intensive OS. Every major PC manufacturer is making efforts to cut the power consumption of their products. What better way to do this than use an OS that uses the hardware at it's disposal more efficiently.

If we take the Linux desktop as an example and compare it to Vista. Why does Vista need so much power just to pull off a few desktop effects? Compiz-Fusion is clear and undeniable proof that the same effects are possible with far less powerful hardware.

And since when was Linux being offered only on low powered machines in Asia. Dell offers Linux in the US and UK not to mention many other countries around the world. Linux has been available on Dell products for nearly a decade.

Personally I think it would make more sense for enterprise customers to simplify their ITC setup and eliminate the need for Samba. Install Linux on the server and install Linux on the desktop. Now both sets of hardware are talking the same networking language. Both sets of hardware are running a robust, secure and stable OS that can handle badly behaved software with ease. Makes life ever so simple.
okroger104
May 5
Try not to intermingling desktop with server markets. They are separate and distinct. Desktop Linux has the stigma worldwide that it is for low powered devices. Especially in Asia who produce the bulk of these devices that run Desktop Linux.

As for the argument of Vista requiring power hungry hardware, well that's not exactly true. Today's notebooks consume less watts than 3 years ago thanks to die shrinkage. (With the exception of gaming notebooks.) And the notebook market is about at parity with the desktop market in terms of sales. The desktop market's watt greed comes mostly from gamer grade GPUs. Especially multiple GPUs.

In any event, As long as you're using a current to 1 year old ATX or BTX desktop motherboard with integrated graphics, the power consumption is fairly even between Vista with aero enabled and a compiz-fusion version of Linux. Idle is going to be around 100 watts regardless. So there's no real argument to be had fo rLinux advantages on this front.

The argument of continuing to use old hardware doesn't hold water simply because most people around the world update their hardware every 3 to 4 years. Can you run Linux on 9 year old hardware? Yep. But only a very small minority does that. And think, the web, with it's multi-media ads and richer content demands increasing hardware performance. Just an example of things that motivate updates.

Lastly, as for cutting power consumption; Intel, Nvidia, ATI/AMD, Seagate, etc are doing this via chip die shrinkage. But at the same time they endeavor to make their products more powerful. They only way these companies stay in business is to obsolete their older products regularly. So the argument of "using hardware at it's disposal" is without consideration to the goals of these companies. These companies want subsequent OS's to increase hardware requirements. It lends to their bottom line and survival. And so they'll be far more likely to support an OS and software that does just that. Not the other way around. And that's just one of the things which stalls desktop Linux's advancement into relevancy.
aikiwolfie
May 5
It's not about being able to run Linux on old hardware. It's about being able to run an OS on a CPU that doesn't give you a tan when you switch the PC on. It's also about saving money. Something every IT department need to do to make budgets go further.
zmjjmz
May 5
Actually aiki, It's best to hav at least three different Open Source OS's for servers and desktops.
This way if one has a huge exploit and you get hit, the part managed by the others won't go down, and you can restore from there. If they're all OSS, then they'll get patched faster.
And by the constant consumerism involved in the computer market, you do a _ton_ of harm to the environment, not only because a large amount of computers get thrown in dumps, but because of soaring production rates. When software companies take advantage of this they accelerate it for the purpose of having more people buy more licenses at a faster rate when they upgrade their computers.
Then, you also raise the bar like this, you enforce the digital divide by making older or cheaper processors virtually unusable with today's current applications.
I also don't see how these companies absolutely depend on a constant stream of new hardware to stay in business. They may need it for their multi-billion dollar profits, but not to stay alive.
For example, anyone can drive a Honda from the early 90s with ease on American roads, right? So, is Honda going out of business? Is Delphi filing for bankruptcy?
No.
And Vista does cause somewhat higher energy usage because if you've ever been near a Vista desktop or laptop, you'd notice that the laptop gets really hot and that the desktop sounds like a bus. This is due to Vista's near constant use of the processor and hard drive for the DRM services, and (more beneficially), the organization of files on the hard drive. Not to mention anti-general-malware stuff.
okroger104
May 5
They need it to stay alive. Don't believe it? Ask the shareholders. ;)

Yet there aren't that many Hondas from the 90's on the roads. Planned obsolescence saw to that. Not to mention the cost of repairing an older car relative to its value make leasing or buying a new one the better choice.

And Delphi is in financial trouble. Actually, they're in bankruptcy.

Since the margins in the tech business are relatively low at the general consumer level, the only way to sell product is to continually up the ante. Nvidia is a pro at this game. Intel also. It's a fact of the business that solidified in the mid 90's.
zmjjmz
May 5
"Yet there aren't that many Hondas from the 90's on the roads. Planned obsolescence saw to that. Not to mention the cost of repairing an older car relative to its value make leasing or buying a new one the better choice."
Erm, you've never been to Newark have you?
And I guess Delphi was something of a bad example, seeing as Honda makes their own engines.
And the shareholders would be biased towards saying that, seeing as big profits for intel means higher stock prices means higher profit for them.
okroger104
May 5
LOL @ Newark. Yeah, you have a point there.
gear
May 6
Data on Asus eEee PC sales in Best Buy stores are, proprietary.
zmjjmz
May 6
Don't forget East Orange.
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