No Extra Software Option - Dell IdeaStorm

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No Extra Software Option

120054 points posted to Software by ootleman 02/16/07 **PARTIALLY IMPLEMENTED**

Would love the ability to have a clean Vista install. No AOL software, no earthlink software, no google software - just a clean, original OS.

Check out jeremy_f's update on our current software options.

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ambiguity 02/16/07	I think a clean computer option would be differentiator for Dell. I'd be willing to pay a premium to replace the lost software placement fees.
jshelton 02/16/07	I agree with ambiguity
thebittersea 02/16/07	Yeah, but I think Dell gets kick backs from Google and the such. It's really an inconvenience for the uber-geeks, but i think it's fine for normal users. I'd rather have the option to remove unnecessary software that actually saves me money at the checkout.
onethumb 02/16/07	@thebittersea: The 'normal users' in my family (my mother-in-law, etc) are the ones who hate it the most. Because they get their shiny new Dell and all this software keeps popping up, asking for her attention all the time, and she has no idea how to get rid of it, unlike us geeks. I think you have it flipped around. I know for a fact that my relatives would pay a premium to have no extra software installed.
thebittersea 02/16/07	@onethumb: I agree, but there's always a "no" or "cancel" button on those pop-ups.
marc1919 02/16/07	If you have to install the bundled software to satisfy the software partners, what about a simple 'Uninstall All' button with check box confirmations for each program after the first boot up? Or add this as a separate feature to the "Remove Software" control panel program.
onethumb 02/16/07	@marc1919: The problem is that there are those software partners in the first place. There shouldn't be deals like that in place which degrade the customer experience. I suppose it's possible I'm unique, but of the three or so dozen people I've helped get Dells in the last few years, every single one of them was dismayed that there was unnecessary software pre-installed. Most would have no idea how to "Uninstall All" or would be scared of doing so. Somehow, there should be a way to offer a machine without extra software installed. Every piece of software should have a "no thanks" option next to it in the install process, and the end result is you end up with a pristine machine.
i_own_dell 02/16/07	I agree. This is something that is definitely required. Give user to select clean install at an extra premium. Atleast they can select the addons or no addons.
pdonket 02/16/07	Just so you all know, having the software taken off means drastically more expensive products to make up for less product "sponsors"
jonmagic 02/16/07	As a computer tech who has to spend up to 1.5 hours uninstalling crap and making things work on new dells, i would be willing to pay the extra, i think it would be cheaper for my clients in the long run, as they have to pay me by the hour to clean a new Dell machine up...
pdonket 02/16/07	It's not that difficult...pop the windows disc in, delete the main partition, reformat.
otacon 02/16/07	"Bloatware"=cheaper prices.... Not ever going to change, it's how the system works. How do you think Dell offers those super coupons now and then? Those really good deals sometimes? More bloatware going on the system. Some new company paid Dell to put their software on the computer. Dell is always making money on every peice of hardware that they ship. The margins might change sometimes due to overstocking situations and they want to move warehoused product. The bloatware contributes to the price, or subtracts is a better way of putting, just as much as component cost. They can put 100GB of bloatware on my laptop if it knocks the price down.
pdonket 02/16/07	Hell yes I agree otacon! Give me a $100 laptop that has a laptop filled to the brim with it!
obsidian 02/16/07	Absolutely agree. If Dell 'financially' benefits from distributing the software then provide it on an optional load DVD
davidshq 02/16/07	I agree as well. For example, I have FiOS, I don't need AOL or any other ISP. I'm all set. So let's stop putting them on my computer - I'm not gonna use them.
eslater 02/16/07	Dell makes hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing dollars for placement and registrations from these software companies. It would take a lot to get them to stop adding this "extra" software.
pdonket 02/16/07	yeah...we're talking like...hundreds of thousands of "promotes" before they really consider this a way to make more money.
mikem 02/16/07	I agree. I'm the owner of a small law firm and I uninstall all of that crap when we get a new computer in. It add ten to thirty minutes to the time it takes to set up a new computer. A real pain in the ass. I'd pay a tad extra to avoid the hassle.
gautam 02/16/07	Perhaps one of the best and easiest to implement ideas.
ben_b 02/16/07	It doesn't matter who it would benifit most but it needs to be offered as an option. I am tired of reformating my computer as soon as I get it brand new.
nick_inspironvista 02/17/07	Just have the option "No software installed" when ordering.
forworldpeace 02/17/07	Simply, put Dell was created to Give the Consumer what they want... Great Product... Great Price... Great Customer Service... Tacking on extra software (especially all the dial up crap when the whole world is going fast) is going away from Dell's brand image... $$$ of Software Placement Revenue vs. Reputation of paying heed to consumers need Take your pick Mr. Dell
jvin248 02/17/07	The majority of computer users are not tech savvy enough to handle the problems associated with additional software installations - so typical user experiences are compromised by distractions (pop-ups), long boot times (as those feeler programs are loaded into task bars and so on), slow running (unneeded services installed), and slow Internet (filtering everything through additional program layers). Solution is to have purchase options that communicates to the buyer just what they are getting into: 1- No Operating System (empty hard drive) = + $ XX (no Microsoft subsidy, allows Linux+) 2- Windows but no additional ad-ware = +$ X (no AOL, no demo software, etc) 3- Windows plus advertising = -# XX (half a hard drive full of advertising, cpu runs 15% slower, with 25% loss of memory) Until the performance and customer usability issues are recognized then competitors like Apple will continue to gain market share in the consumer market. The iPod as a music player wasn't revolutionary - just the simplicity and ease of use. So consider expanding Lean Manufacturing concepts into the user experience, it will even cut down on other system costs (reduced call center needs). Need more help? contact me via http://www.privateproductivity.com/ or see my weblog http://www.privateproductivity.com/blog<
svasdasd 02/17/07	Hahaha, I knew this option would rise so quickly to the top. It is the #1 thing people hate about new Dells.
gcreese 02/17/07	Absolutely stellar idea. I spend the first day ripping out all the junk that Dell installed. It's an incredible time waster.
kyliemanders 02/17/07	I think they have an option to remove the crapware in place already. I was just pricing a system yesterday and saw an option to remove the garbage. Not sure if it included everything. New users are overwhelmed by all the crap. I have seen people with 3 and 4 search toolbars on Internet Explorer. They have no idea how they got there or what they are for. Trouble is they take up about an inch of wasted screen real estate. I recently got my girlfriend to dump her Mac and get a Dell. The Mac user is a simpler mind and is not used to all the pop-ups and having to make decisions. They like things to be decided for them and then they can go about their way. She was extremely frustrated and was ready to send it back. I had to go over and spend 45 minutes uninstalling all the crap included. Yes give us the option to pay an extra $50-$100 to buy a clean Vista install.
thehotfun 02/17/07	why no extra hardware option.??????
pdonket 02/17/07	Ok, I'll say this, being that some of us probably don't care spending 30 minutes to clean out the computer, how bout this...which would you buy out of these 2 options 1)Regular Hard Drive- Free Demo's and such included bloat 2)Cleaned Hard Drive- Free of sponsors programs +$150 It's either that, or we all pay that extra 150, which i think is stupid.
justbot1 02/17/07	my most recent new-latitude experience... third party add on s/w that: had been installed in the shipped computer configuration, was blocking on quiet delivery of advertised function, presence of which was not disclosed in pre-sale literature, and required my time and effort to mitigate. What's more, technical support could not "assure" that proscribed actions would correct the problem - they could only make a suggestion (guess) of what might work. My suggestion 1 - if you install it, then document it. A new-user should have clear identification of what is installed, and a road-map in easy-reading check-list card format that informs of which bloat-ware is installed, what it does or could do for customer. My suggestion 2 - the new computer pre-start-up card must indicate the specific steps that a new user can take to ensure the bloat-ware is not active, and by that I mean not taking-up disk space, registry entry resources, or any other of the asset that customer has paid $ for. My suggestion 3 - the resource CD must include a pre-insert road-map card indicating what of the add-on s/w is present and exactly how one can install a single item. After receiving a dysfunctional baseline load, a customer is very reluctant to trust a resource CD to install a single item, not all of, the baseline load of bloat-ware. hoping to take the discussion to a constructive place, albeit with some vinegar in my wine after this recent experience. My previous experience over a 4+ year period of use was not a bad one, the h/w worked mostly AND when it didn't the h/w service was prompt and darned handy for someone who lives off their computer. the topic of this forum is perhaps the most important one from the perspective of customer value - a few K$ is more easily spent than a week of down-time, or transition time, with many hours on the phone. You can't "support-in" the quality that is needed after the sale with any number of telephone support technicians, it must be built-in to the burst-load, start-up process, and resource re-load s/w tools. There are lots of users who may upgrade / update their h/w more often if only the transition cost and business impact of that process was less. This is an opportunity to decrease the replenishment cycle time of your companies products; please accept the challenge mr. Dell.
das004 02/17/07	I agree that Dell has a financial incentive to offer bloatware, but one small way to limit it would be to get rid of the worthless 56k modem on all Dell laptops and have it as a PCMCIA card option. I would use the extra space for a gigabyte ethernet NIC instead of the crummy 10/100 NIC's present on all Dell Home Laptops.
garycobb 02/17/07	Dell has to quit taking discounted deals and their small profit earnings from companies that are out of favor, like AOL, Earthlink, AT&T, etc and focus on the enhancements in quality, reliability, and a the integration of a brodening feature set for the mobile PC user who has a home wireless network, too. Videos, Sound, Internet Access and hugh, automatic back-up wireless vaults should be the focus of product developments at Dell. Bring it back, Michael!
pdonket 02/17/07	I don't get why you guys aren't understand that all of this mean MUCH higher prices.
questrn3 02/17/07	For many of us, the eliminaion of wasted time in removing junk would be well worth extra cost. For people who simply like to play with computers, it is fine to add as much stuff as possible. For those who view the computer as an instrument in carrying out particicular professional or personal tasks (a majority of users), anything that detracts from a basic purpose or contrutes to confusioin should be purely optional.
chanquest 02/17/07	dude, I agree with the people that the bloatware is sponsored so its safe to say that its going to stay there. A better option is to offer a barebones model which will probably just be the case and power supply and let customers build up the machine with ram, video card, sound card, optical drive, and hard disk. Then when it's time for the operating system, customers will have to choose Windows as an application to be purchased. Most likely, Dell would not install this for you because they probably have an automated build with the bloatware on it that they mass install. So you not only have to take the time to install it and test yourself but once you build a PC this way, you 'll probably pay double the price than you otherwise would. All of a sudden, those bloatware seem like a pretty good deal to have.
pdonket 02/17/07	Thanks chanquest, i really agree.
wsteiner 02/17/07	Sponsored software or not, it seems Mr. Dell is very open to new ideas from THE CUSTOMERS! While some of the other companies that have their software installed on every Dell machine might not like it, I believe Mr. Dell would entertain the removal idea if that is what the customer wants, AND if Dell is serious about wanting to be Number One again. You want to be the best company? Get rid of the stuff and don't pass your loss ($$) on to me.
pdonket 02/17/07	@wsteiner....do you really think Dell is going to take a multi billion dollar loss just for the sake of us being happier? I doubt that. I don't get some opinions on here, they are plain out not logical.
stasysv 02/17/07	I would prefer to have a clean Windows install.
pdonket 02/17/07	lol, it's amazing how money wise people are gifted here to be willing to spend an extra 150+ just to save 30-50 minutes
agreer 02/17/07	Make it a sort of "opt in" deal...eg: Nice box, decent display $1000: same with "Special trial ware from our proud sponsors" $500
agreer 02/17/07	BTW: I tell friends and family not to worry about the preloaded crap, just buy the cheapest PC that meets your needs and have a cold MT Dew ready when I arrive to tweak and clean it...
pdonket 02/17/07	I like the plan agreer
wilsoncd35 02/17/07	I would for sure pay for this option.
saluyot 02/17/07	no to dell bloatware! what's the use of say, aol software in a dell pc? dell should give customers options. aol is useless in overaseas places where no aol service is available.
joelist 02/17/07	I like agreer's idea also. It pitches the price discount available if you take the sponsor software but also allows a "decrapified" version. Both sides win.
pdonket 02/18/07	Yep :) I would have to say...I think agreers plan is also plain out more reasonable, Dell isn't going to drop all their sponsors and jack their prices up because most people that have voted probably didn't think about paying $500 extra for this and wouldn't pay if they finally saw it. Also Dell, if you do still want sponsors, at least put good ones on there, do some research. AOL was rated the WORST thing in america a couple years back, obviously thats not something most people want as it turns out.
steve 02/18/07	pdonket - do you work for Dell? Where and how are you coming up with your dollar figures? What if the option to not have bloatware were Only $12.00??? The most recent Dell I bought was two months ago. I almost threw the darn thing out the window cause of all the prompts..Just getting to the desktop to do what " I" wanted to do was painful. It was a Christmas present for my 79 year old mother. She would have had a stroke if she had to deal with the bloatware.
pdonket 02/18/07	No, I do not work for Dell, I'm just trying to put less drastic plans in place that will actually work. All of Dell's sponsors (bloatware) are giving dell MILLIONs upon MILLIONS of dollars to put their crap on the computers. If they remove that say 50 Million+ dollars worth of sponsor ship, we're talking significant amounts of money per computer to not have that on there, so that Dell can maintain it's profit margin. If it were only $12, then hell go ahead with it, I would sure pay $12 to save an hour of my time, it's more the fact that I'm doubting it would be $12...it's such a large amount of money dell would lose that they would not just throw out the window. I do think the price would be less than $500, but I would say it'll be jacked up no less than $150 per computer. I'm just a 15 year old in high school, but I know a lot about the computer industry in general. And even though I have tons of homework with my courses, I could find myself some time to sit down with my new computer and reformat the hard drive. I know it's a pain in the ass, but I'd personally rather save my cash and fix my computer up myself. Scratch the figure in my first of 50 million a year, someone claims google paid 1 billion alone, I doubt that high of a figure, but I guess we may be talking 400+ million a year. Thats just me I guess, and maybe a couple others. ~Charlie
non-geek 02/18/07	I do understand that Dell is getting paid big bucks to install all that unnecessary software and we-the-customers benefit with supposedly a lower price computer. BUT, I big percentage of the people that buy computers are "users", they are not "computer literate" (read Geeks). They just use the computer - mostly to get on the internet and write the Xmas letter - and have no clue of what to do with all that extra software. I am a consulting engineer ($75/hr) and I would gladly spent an extra $150 to get a machine that is not loaded with programs that (1) I will never use (2) are taking up room (3) slowing my machine everytime I start it. I have spent more than a couple of hours messing around with my computer, trying to get rid of all the unnecessary software. When I am asked about buying a computer, I usually find out that the computer is needed to do word processing, maybe some spreadsheet and mostly to get on the internet. So I usually tell them to buy the cheapest computer they can find, then take the extra software out. They look at me with with a puzzle face, ..... take out what software? They have no clue. And then they ask what is all that stuff on the screen and all those offers, etc. And why does the computer take so long to start. Why not place all that extra software on the disk to be loaded by the customer the first time the computer is started. On power-up for the first time when the computer is configured, ask for the DVD and then present the customer with the option to install the extra software. Why is this so difficult?
pdonket 02/18/07	PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING BELOW...i've worked hard and long to find the figures out below, and the ones I posted aren't even as clean as I could've gotten. Ok, after doing an hour of research and math, assuming every quarter has generally the same number of computers sold, Dell sold 37 million products last year (2006). Now, I'll lay it all out for you. They make 55 billion a year in total revenue. I'd say 5 to 7 Billion is made outside of the computer industry. So leave us 48 Billion made on computers and servers a year. I'd say they make about $1200 per purchase of these products. Thats coming out to be a total of 44 Billion Dollars revenue a year. That leaves us 4 Billion Dollars a year that are being made by Dell's sponsorship. Which, for everyones information is more than they make in profit each year. That means they can't drop those sponsors without making back the money somewhere. Also I've equated that. Now you may all be thinking "who cares" Well, I also subtracted some of their products from the whole (about 2 million) and overall, we're talking $100 more per system to have no bloatware on it. In addition, assuming only 2 Million non-computer products are sold per year is a VERY reserved guess. We may really be talking 125-150 after real numbers show. Now Dell, after trying to fight your side of this war, could I have a cookie for my efforts ^_^?
dhdeans 02/18/07	I've read all the commentary thus far, and I have a very fundamental question -- where does the fine line between 'sponsorship' end, and 'antitrust' begin? Frankly, I'm puzzled. Dell is alleged to have taken a $1B payment from Intel in return for a commitment to keep AMD processors out of Dell computers, and software vendors are apparently bidding to get their software package loaded in place of a competitors, and so I'm now wondering if other OEM vendors are paying for exclusivity as well? My point, is the bloatware problem really a symptom of a much bigger underlying issue that has tainted the computer industry today? Does this mean that instead of getting a product with the best of bread components inside, I'm getting one with the parts selected from the most devious OEM suppliers? It's not a rhetorical question. I really want to know if this debate has greater implications. If so, then a 'delete all bundled software' option clearly doesn't get to the root of the problem.
jake17 02/18/07	I think that there are a fair number of people out there who would choose to pay an extra $100 for a computer without all the additional software. People who may even be avoiding buying a Dell currently because there is no such option. Even if this is only 10 or 20% of the market, that's a bigger potential win than most other options they probably consider. I think the real problem is that by providing an option not to have the additional software preinstalled they are admitting that it's a problem. Imagine what the headlines would read if 50% of the customers decided to pay an extra hundred dollars to avoid the preinstalled software. Of course you could avoid preinstalling software on all the computers, and probably even get good marketing from that, but there's definitely also a good percentage of the market that does want to save $100.
phil 02/18/07	I would pay up to $50 extra for a clean windows install and then also be able to do a clean "reinstall" too.
pdonket 02/18/07	@Phil- I'm certain it won't be $50 or less if Dell doesn't decide to take a loss in profit @jake- I think no matter what there should be a choice because it may deter people away from Dell if they jack the prices up to get rid of bloatware leaving some people thinking "why would i pay that extra $100 when i could just do it myself for no money. And also, Yes, I'm all over this website like a fat kid on ice cream.
jake17 02/18/07	I agree that it would be good to have the option. I'm just saying that I can see why Dell hasn't done it yet. In terms of the "I could just do it myself for no money" option, that's definitely a good plan if you are tech savvy and have the time available. I suspect that nearly half the customers cannot easily do a clean reinstall, and another good chunk of the customers could do the reinstall but would be making more money if they just did their normal work instead of reinstalling the OS (two hours to save $100 is $50 per hour and at least a fair number of high-tech jobs are paying more than $50 per hour)
pdonket 02/18/07	I agree, I think most tech savvy people are not the ones buying from dell, plain and simple. And indeed, if I had a great paying tech job, I'd be willing to spend that $100 to save me some time, but of course being a high school kid, I have plenty of time, and very little money :-p
thebittersea 02/18/07	I agree with pdonkey. I for one never bought a Dell for personal use.
owenmpk 02/18/07	Simple answer to this problem purchase an OptiPlex line Dell these are business grade systems that come with clean installs, but cost ~$500 more. The OptiPlex’s are built for large enterprises and have more support et al which increases the cost. So Dell uses the “crap” software reduces costs on Dimensions. The consumer only looks at price not supportability which Dell builds all their systems around. I have worked on many systems over the years and Dell is hands down the easiest to support and upgrade then most. Dell has learned to keep away from proprietary drivers. Dam HP is a pain when it comes to this, and some Sony laptops have the hard drives soldered to the motherboard. I have found both lines to be good during my 13 years of systems support in large and small companies. No I do not work for Dell.
jake17 02/18/07	Clearly there is a business opportunity for high school students to uninstall the extra preinstalled software for $100 :-) But I guess you're right in that there are a lot of different segments of the market.
audiofree 02/18/07	YES do this no extra software.. how hard could that be?
pdonket 02/18/07	Haha, I would definitely take time to uninstall the stuff for people, of course at a cost. I could even undercut Dell and charge $50 for a reformat lol. I've made dell well over $5000 in sales to my friends, 3 E510's at about $1000 each or more, then one friend bought an E1705 for $2500+ hah. Of course I spent hours customizing different computers, finding coupons, etc. to get them all good deals but since they are my friends I couldn't charge them for anything. I have considered offering tech things to people in my school but never got around to it :) In addition, it appears we still have people popping by constantly that are not keeping up at all with whats being said.
non-geek 02/18/07	pdonket, You hit the nail deadcenter. It cost a lot of time ($$$) to keep things going, and not geting paid for (:-(. I have spent countless hours fixing or helping friends and family with their system with all that extra software they don't need, and they have no clue of what to do about it. Can somebody explain why is so difficult to place all that extra software on the DVD and give the customer the option to install it at the time of system initialization?
pdonket 02/18/07	Yeah, non-geek has a point, maybe you could even raise the prices of your systems slightly and have your sponsors pay you a little less, but still pay you to include a disc with all their software loaded onto it.
non-geek 02/18/07	pdonket, Just a couple of weeks ago my daughter's computer got one of those "software notices" that poped up every 5 minutes to tell her that the computer had a "terrible" virus and that "they could fix it" for $39.95. Yeah Right !!! I could not get rid of the pest, so I re-installed her operating system. It is a Sony Vaio laptop (2001) Win-Home. I turns out that there were two CD, one with the OS and the other had all the extra software. They use the computer for web surfing and she uses from time to time WordPad. I still had to get rid of AOL and ATT that got installed with the OS. Why can't Dell (and Toshiba by the way) send an extra CD or DVD (since the crapware is so big nowadays) ??? How much would that cost?
pdonket 02/18/07	Well, the basic reason for them not doing so primarily is because those software companies signed contracts saying they would be pre-installed on the computers. Also, It somewhat defeats the purpose for those companies to send out the crap on a disc, instead of installed because most people (even computer illiterates) know that they don't want to install those programs. And of course, if they don't end up installing them, they won't be used and of course google, trendmicro, etc. just wasted hundreds of millions of dollars. Thats the sad truth.
mersch 02/18/07	If dell makes a profit by having software companies products installed that translates into lower cost for the customer eventually and more capitol for R&D. Every computer company does this. And Dell also does not warehouse computers. They are built after you order them. Unless you are buying a refurb that is. I personally wouldn't mind. If you buy a product you should be familiar with it. You can uninstall anything that gets installed. Old people and computers don't mix anyway. It's like that 70 yr old guy driving a farrari and won't drive over 45 miles an hour. Maybe an senior citizen setup should be an option. Basic everything. LOL
pdonket 02/18/07	@Mersch: Thats honestly not a bad idea. My grand-ma, well she thinks she knows exactly what shes doing on a computer, but she has little to no clue what shes doing. My grand-dad who is 85 is extremely smart but he feels intimidated by computers. Honestly, I don't think older people will get into them because they don't really have a need or reliance on them. Today kids are brought up to rely on machines to do work for them, printing out your essays, using a calculator for even simple math, games, etc. and that makes us much more reliant on them in the future and now. In 70 years when I'm 85, I'm sure there'll be some "new contraption" that I won't have a need or want to use. I think it's just the way it will be. Once we all get old, we get set in our ways and have barely any or no desire to learn past what we know because most people dislike change. Anyway enough rambling. I do enjoy discussing these topics with you all, keep them coming!
mersch 02/18/07	Offering a gigabit network on home computers would be nice but how many actual home users have a 1000 MB network. Not many so I doubt that would happen. 10/100 is fine and the 56k modem is there for the older crowd that don't have the cash or won't pony it up for broadband.
pdonket 02/18/07	Hah, I remember the days of 56k, ahh how horrible. I agree that it's pretty un-necessary to offer gigabit. What are some of your speeds on broadband??? Go to www.speedtest.net and try it out, I've got 14,XXX kbps down, 1500 kbps up
pdonket 02/18/07	double post
compugeek 02/18/07	I don't mind the bloatware, as long as Dell PCs still come with those wonderful OEM Windows disks that no one else packages anymore. That XP disk has saved my computer more times than I can count, and best of all the bloatware doesn't get re-installed. Most novice users won't mind the bloat, and most people that do wouldn't mind a simple 30 minute reinstallation to get rid of it.
ratherplaypinball 02/19/07	Agreed - our corporation which buys hundreds of Dells each year has to remove the bloatware before we can deploy the PC into our environment. Programs that have the potential to phone-home or connect to the Internet worries us (think Google desktop). All it would take is one more thing to go wrong with buying a Dell - such as service and we'd switch to another vendor. Another PC vendor that starts with an "L" has agreed to ship units without bloatware. Come on Dell, don't make us switch.
wsteiner 02/19/07	pdonket - You ask me, "...do you really think Dell is going to take a multi billion dollar loss just for the sake of us being happier?" Well call me ignorant (or illogical) but yes I do! Dell made a conscious business decision to get into bed with these other companies. I wouldn't doubt if the board room decision was based on data similar to insurance company actuary tables (e.g. how many customers will we lose in the long run vs. how much revenue we will generate.) If the customer backlash is big enough, the the company may rethink their decision. I realize that as a public company, Dell has a duty to it's stockholders to increase the value of their holdings. All I was trying to say is that Dell may want to think again about these short term gains vs. long term company survivability. As for paying to have them NOT put this bloatware on my computer, my first thought was EXTORTION. Then I realized this was an extremely harsh and incorrect label. Next was BLACKMAIL, but this too seemed inappropriate. I do think the term USARY fits into this scenario. I would like to respond to dhdeans question also. (...where does the fine line between 'sponsorship' end, and 'antitrust' begin?) I think this is a great question but certainly beyond the scope of this "No_Extra_Software_Added" blog. But, all of this comes down to the almighty dollar. Companies can and will do whatever it takes to grow, especially in the technology sector where it is more of a question of surviving, not just growing. Consumers can always give their input to companies and I think the dellideastorm site is a great tool, IF the companies listens and acts. Otherwise, the only way to register your vote in the boardroom is with your feet.
pdonket 02/19/07	But understand this, dell profits something like, 3.84 Billion a year, with an estimated 4 Billion coming in from those sponsors, that means dell will be at a net loss of .16 Billion Dollars....you think they'll go for that plan? I think not. The reason Dell can offer their coupons and low system prices is because of those sponsors and we've all gotten so used to it and so greedy that we just want more and more, someone on here should've just posted "hey dell, could you give out free systems please? I know you may take a loss...but the customer is always right" BS. They need to make a profit plain and simple. Expect what you'd like, I just don't see it happening.
kyliemanders 02/19/07	Here is the link to the 1 billion Google / Dell http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,197087,00.html
pdonket 02/19/07	Thanks kyliemanders, :) after seeing that, I don't see why they would totally do away with bloat, it makes them a LOT of money.
pdonket 02/19/07	this website is having mental issues with double posts.
wsteiner 02/19/07	pdonket - I won't question your research into Dell's accounting, but there seems to be a few others scratching there heads as they examine their books these days. I also understand that this business decision is certainly bringing a lot of money into the company. Can they "cease and desist" loading this software at 12:00 today? Of course not, they have contracts with these software companies. Will they rid their boxes of this stuff? Probably not, for financial reasons (I never said it wasn't revenue). Could they do it in the future if they wanted to? Certainly! And that's what this site is all about. If enough of us voice displeasure and/or spend our money elsewhere, Dell would rethink this practice when they examine the company's direction as they discuss strategic planning. Although I would love to see it vanish completely,I like the idea of an "opt out" choice for the average, non-technical user. The average user doesn't want to tinker under the hood of their brand new computer. If they screw something up they will have to call Dell support, but that's another popular subject on this site. I feel they can make this move if they want. Will there be (financial) pain involved? Probably, but the long term gain in customer confidence and trust will overcome this as they maintain and even build their customer base. A move away from a lucrative revenue generating practice due to negative customer feedback would be a marketing directors dream! So let's just agree to disagree. I've enjoyed our banter but feel we are monopolizing the site. Let's hear from others as to whether they feel NO EXTRA SOFTWARE OPTION is viable.
colepc 02/19/07	This is one of the main reasons I promote HP business machines over Dell. Get rid of the extra crap-ware.
pdonket 02/19/07	@wsteiner I do agree with what you're saying, and I certainly think there should be an option, because I for one know many people who are absolutely computer illiterate. I mean....my friend refuses to go even into Dell chat to solve his problems because he doesn't know what to say and hes afraid of the foreign techs. Anyway thats besides the point. The option should definitely be there for those who are willing to spend some money to remove the bloat, I think Dell may do this if they can really re-think it all and financially plan everything out dollar by dollar to see what they can do around here. The fact they set up this site shows that they really do want to take into consideration what we the people are saying. I honor Dell for doing this.
florbinant 02/19/07	It would be really an option who will make me switch to Dell. I could be ready to pay for it, but no more than $20. As well as I want a real Vista Cd with my new computer, and not a crappy "recovery cd".
dhdeans 02/19/07	wsteiner, perhaps my question isn't really beyond the scope of the topic if it's truly a systemic issue in the computer sector. As an example, I've been wondered why there's a growing trend of folks building their own PCs once again, and now I think I'm beginning to understand why. When you assemble your own desktop computer you can be assured that you include best-of-breed components. In contrast, when I buy a mass-produced product it very likely incorporates 'good enough' components from the most 'opportunistic' OEM suppliers who know how to hustle creative 'sponsor' deals. Anyway, I find it ironic that Michael Dell apparently started by building PCs in his UT dorm room for this very reason -- there's a real market for something better than 'good enough' components. Granted, you can't easily assemble a notebook computer yourself, although it would appear that some Dell customers would like the option to have Dell build one from a truly 'open' menu of best-of-breed components. I've read the term "back to basics" on several suggestions within IdeaStorm, and maybe that's what Dell customers are really craving.
dhdeans 02/19/07	sorry, had to delete this double-posting
dhdeans 02/19/07	Also, I do question pdonket's simplistic calculations, with the implication that sponsor kickbacks are probably pure profit for Dell. Given all the comments here, it's apparent that bloatware increases Dell's customer support costs. If you analyze the Dell Call Center "call driver" data (primary reasons consumer's call) history, I believe that you will find a huge volume of consumer requests to have Dell tech support help them remove the bloatware from their machines. My point: you have to deduct the real cost to Dell's operations before you can calculate the beneficial or adverse impact on profit margins. Outsourcing requests for support to India compounds the problem, even though the short term effects may appear positive. The bloatware 'creative accounting' fiasco is a losing strategy, when you consider all the unproductive work that it creates for Dell's customer care operations. Now, when you also factor in the true loss of customer "goodwill" from this short-sighted shell game -- then the collective damage, both reputation and monetary, is really obvious.
pdonket 02/19/07	Please do question it, it was simplistic, I only pulled out some numbers and did some rough calculating, I don't give a rats ass in reality, take away the bloat ware, raise prices for everyone? I'm done with dell. Give people the option and I'll take the cheaper computer because I know what I'm doing. I am just trying to keep others from blabbering on about how $5 will get them no bloatware, and thats just not going to happen.
dhdeans 02/19/07	No, it's called an adult discussion, based upon facts -- or legitimate concerns that you continue to debate. See this Fortune magazine article, on the CNN website, and you'll see for yourself that the topic is worthy of thoughtful consideration. Don't be angry. Just keep an open mind. Suit: Intel paid Dell up to $1 billion a year not to use AMD chips http://money.cnn.com/blogs/legalpad/2007/02/suit-intel-paid-dell-up-to-1-bill...
pdonket 02/19/07	I'm not angry, but thanks for bringing age into this. I don't care how much it is, plain and simple, if you don't like my calculations, go ahead and do your own. Prove me wrong. I'm just looking for a nice priced dell that I can work with, because it makes no difference to me whether there is bloat or not because I have time to rid the computer of it. I'm arguing it because I don't think Dell will take the loss of sponsors, even though many customers will change companies possibly because of no bloatware on Dell computers. Also, the figures I brought in here were legitimate, I took them from a couple sources. So I don't know why you're accusing me of putting false things up here. It may be a legitimate concern of the community to not have bloat, but I'm just trying to act as a voice of reality. Sorry if you don't like it. ~pdonket
izzy 02/19/07	Yes! I have ordered 6 systems for friends and family and the first thing I do is remove all of the extra crap (ISP junk, Corel junk, DVD software, modem stuff, trial AV software, etc). I then install the required, 2 YR+ license of anti-malware and other needed apps.
dhdeans 02/19/07	pdonket, like I said, please keep an open mind. And, don't be so sure that Dell won't change their business practices. The executive leadership is going through a major transfusion, and these fresh perspectives could help solve this pivotal issue very quickly. Also, consider that the #1 ranked idea (at this moment) is to provide the "option" to pre-load Linux on Dell computers. Again, Dell will have to make a judgment call, based upon this request from customers. This may be a difficult decision if Microsoft has been paying Dell for exclusivity. Regardless, Dell may conclude that the right thing to do, for all stakeholders, is to let their customers decide which OS they choose to favor.
pdonket 02/19/07	I understand, I guess I'll just step back and watch, put my ideas in and see how they go.
atompngn 02/19/07	I thought this was already an option with the customize your order interface. Perhaps this ability is only available to those with Premiere or medium-to-large business accounts. I remember having the ability to opt-out of at least some of this 3rd party software at the time of purchase.
atompngn 02/19/07	I double-posted accidentally, whoops.
cblspd 02/19/07	I shudder at the thought a freakish company like AOL would have its grotesque crapware on my computer; after all it records and monitors everything its subscribers do online.
aridog 02/19/07	I'm new to these forums, but this topic is not new to me or my experience. Most of what has been said here makes sense. I am one who would pay more for less bloat, and more resources that I also paid for thereby. As I remarked on a similar thread here, we just added a Dell Precision 390 for this in-home office, first because it had the chipset for Raid 1 array without Norton Ghost subscription bloat (no I do not want to partition my HDD-2 thank you...I have full encrypted and duplicate back up externally), and second because it came with little bloat anyway. Who ever suggested, here on this thread, shopping the Dell "business" models, is right...you can get more useable resources for less. The 390, with Raid 1 and dual monitors cost less, overall, than if I had bought a "home" model, from Dell or COTS in a store, and re-worked it ad hoc. An individual can shop the business departments now, and pay by credit card if they choose. It works.
phoenix1405 02/19/07	If they do this, I seriously would recommend dell to everyone.
chip 02/19/07	Yes. PLEASE offer a "bare" OS.
3xternal 02/19/07	Foolishness. Dell's ability to offer PC's at such low prices partially hinges on revenue gained by companies paying to exhibit their trial software on new Dell PCs. Where will that cash come from when the advertisements are eliminated? o thats right, your pocket and mine.
cybergear 02/19/07	i have no proble paying a clean install no ad tax. heck it would save us all time not having to uninstall the shovelware of the week and who know without norton systemlock preinstalled we might be able to get a system on the internet...
joelist 02/19/07	dhdeans, Some cursory research reveals that the only reason the Linux idea shot up (suddenly and very suspiciously) to #1 was that the Linux gang figured out how to flood the web voting system. So it is a poor example. The problem of Dell choking their machines with trial software from every corner of the software world is a very real issue. I (like others here) have to waste my time helping friends wipe the crapware off and get them on a clean, stable image. It would be worth paying a cost premium at purchase (as a prior poster opined, make the clean build the base, raise the prices but then offer a discount back to the current price if you choose to receive "trial software from valued sponsors).
dhdeans 02/19/07	joelist, yes I saw that mentioned within the comments on that #1 post. Perhaps the quantity and substantive quality of comments will be a better metric for Dell to use in evaluating the suggestions on IdeaStorm. After 72 hours of operation, this website has already proven to be so much more thought provoking than the typical focus groups that marketers traditionally use to gain insights -- even if the "promote" ranking process is flawed. BTW, I'm not a techie, but I've been able to remove most unwanted software from my Dell PCs. I actually had the inverse problem with my Dell Axim X30 (Pocket PC), it didn't come with much bundled software on CD, and so I had to go do some research. I found some really good freeware. There's just no pleasing some people :-)

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