Environmental Laptop Based on Solar Energy/Hydrogen Fuel Cell

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4185

Environmental Laptop Based on Solar Energy/Hydrogen Fuel Cell

4185 points posted to Environment, Laptop Power by gchakra 02/17/07 **UNDER REVIEW**

What's smart for the environment is smart for Dell. Dell should build units that are degradable or can be easily recycled. Sure, its going to be a little more expensive, but it will be a smart product. It will use a lot less energy. The laptops could have a solar panel or be powered by a hydrogen fuel cell. The first microelectronic implementation of a fuel cell will give Dell a tremendous marketing boost. It will be incredibly popular with kids in college.
Gopal

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rocket7775 02/17/07	Kudos & well said its about time someone gets the idea to use the earths natural resorces
ndtrek07 02/19/07	Good idea, waste generated by computer parts is an important concern. However, won't a system with components that are degradable/easily recyclable, and more energy efficient cost more, like you mention? As a college student, I can tell you that while many of us are concerned about the environment, most of us also have a very limited income. I can't see many college students paying an extra few hundred dollars for a computer. If the computers could be offered with an Educational discount, that would make the price comparable to similar models without these environment-friendly features, then I think you'd get more college kids to jump on board. Provided, of course, that the quality & performance of these components remain at an acceptable level.
nzheretic 02/20/07	Integrating Solar Cell into all laptops cases would be a good first step. The cells could trickle charge the batteries instead of powering the laptop entirely.
arthus 02/21/07	Great Idea. This could be the future.
incase 02/22/07	A solar panel to improve battery live would be nice, but unfortunately, fuel cells aren't yet suitable for this sort of device. LithiumPolymer batteries provide much more Ampere*hours per kilogramm than any currently available fuelcell. Apart from that, the smallest fuelcell I saw which was capable of providing 70 Watt (about the lower limit for current laptops) was definately larger than my XPS m1710.
incase 02/22/07	Forgot to mention: Once fuelcells with sufficient power are available in sizes buildable into laptops, I would really appreciate them in Dell laptops.
impala 02/23/07	fuel cells are not magic. Batteries are more efficient method to store, charge, and discharge electricity. We just need better batteries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#In_practice
glaistig 02/26/07	a battery charger, based on manual power would be a good intermediate step. The technology exists for radio's. So it only needs an approved and save electronic interface to the laptop battery.
gniltaws 03/01/07	...and when my fuel cell runs out of power, I'll just go down to the corner store and buy a new one? While you're at it, make one that runs on AA's.
bennish 03/13/07	Well said! Especially about students. With Apple's big ipod success, the time is ripe - students are always turning away from 'mainstream' and they're looking for something new. They want products that are NON EVIL. Give them some and they'll thank you with money and market share.
reg 04/15/07	Fuel Cell Technology for Dell Notebooks - Run For Days!
pixar 04/20/07	Imagine the headlines: "Dell hydrogen fuel cell powered laptop exploded and killed a mother of four" Imagine the liabilities... Remember Lithium batteries? They are MUCH safer than Hydrogen. Thanks, but I'll pass for the next 5-10 years. maybe it will be mature by then.
reg 04/20/07	PIXAR -- don't be a FUD Bunny ! Fuel Cells are Zero-combustion devices, using a solid oxide reactor, converting natural gas directly into useable electrical energy + a little CO2 and water vapor. Much Less dangerous than the lighter in a smokers pocket.
bennish 04/22/07	thankyou reg
reg 04/24/07	You're welcome. Fuel Cells are much safer than Gasoline Cars, just watch any Hollywood movie car chase (crash- BOOM!).
ruvenss 05/29/07	Damn I'll add this idea to mine since is on the first position by the moment... i'll make reference to yours
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Idea originally posted 05/29/07 Solar Panels Skin on the Laptop Screen and Hydrogen Fuel Cell What about a nice design of Solar Panel Skin that helps to reload the batteries of the laptops while we are on the Train, Car, Airplane, Park, or Camping... you know since Wifi is so extended on Campus, Parks, and silicon parks, Some of us we'll love to get out with our laptops, and a good mug of Ice Coffee, so we can breath the fresh air of the summer and the spring... for long periods of time... I thought will be a nice thing to remark again the hydrogen fuel cell thing inside the laptop.
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/29/07 If you demote the Idea Please! Please Explain WHY!
jervis961 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/29/07 It has been discussed that the solar cell is not cost effective in the size it would need to be to fit on a laptop.
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 then lets avoid the hydrogen fuel cell and lets keep the solar panels for charging only :D
pkarlos_76 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 This is reaching near realization within the next 2 years, Dell, should be preparing development for the introduction into Laptops. I can get a Hydrogen unit for 10,000 the size of refridgerator that will power a 2 houses for a year on one charge. http://www.fuelcellstore.com/
jervis961 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 Here is a link for a solar solution to power a laptop. Its big and expensive. http://www.ctsolar.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=11< story about fuel cells one notebooks, interesting feedback comments too. http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2007Apr/gee20070502004821.htm
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 (pkarlos_76) I didn't knew that, its awesome! Dell could invest 2 or 3 millions on research, so they can accomplish that task :D
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 Even if the panels only help the laptop to stand 1hr more, add this hour for an average of 5hrs a week, 20hrs a month , 240hrs a year, now multiply 200hrs a year by the qty of DELL laptop users around the world, and tell me if that doesn't worth for the planet. Now, here in Europe electricity ain't cheap you know, so If I can save 240hrs a year on electricity that's around 75€, by average I change my laptop every 2 years so I'll be saving around 150€ on the laptop price. if a good Linux Laptop cost around 900€, and I can save 150€ the real price at the end of its life cycle will be 750€, and I am sure that DELL can get a reduction on the European ECO tax, and the recycling taxes so you can subtract 10€ more from the price.
jervis961 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 But how much does the solar panel cost? If it costs $500 for the solar panel you just lost money.
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 ( jervis961 )IT doesn't cost you 500$!!!! that price is out of the real line production costs, first the website you gave, is for an small biz, on-line store, which means that they are already gaining 100$ or maybe more by product, then you get the China factory who sells all that wich is getting maybe 20$, for a big production and 50$ more for the logistic chain, and 20$ more for tax, and 10$ more for managment, etc etc... if only 1 big producer, and 1 big assembler as dell manage a good qty...THERE you got the price!
jervis961 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 So how much would Dell charge for it?
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 :D kind of hard to say... I'am not Michael Dell, and even if I was, I couldn't tell after mercha planning, and cost effective design... I guess :D BUT 500$ is out of the subject, also imagine what kind of propaganda will they get, THE FIRST SOLAR POWER RECHARGEABLE LAPTOP on the world... all the Greenpeace guys will get one of this :D
rotthund 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 In my usage my laptop does see enough light, the the lid would be in the worst angle. Secondly, I wouldn't leave my laptop out in such a sunny place to avoid theft. There are external solar panels: http://www.brunton.com/catalog.php?subcat=7< feul cell, if it works...demands on battery life will do more to advance feul cell/battery tech than anything else. But, what happened to the idea of dual batteries in laptops?
jervis961 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/30/07 I think this solution would be easier and less flammable than hydrogen or methane in a http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/65514
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/31/07 ( ROTTHUND ) I'll never leave my laptop alone :D hehehehe...I think none of use will ever leave our laptops all alone in a public place :D... maybe @ home or at the office but that's it.
rotthund 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/31/07 yeah, I carry my laptop around when not using it at church. I'll leave the other stuff to save my seat. Except for the padded case, it'd get a little light. If the laptop's skin was skin, my laptop would be very pale.
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/31/07 eheheheheheh :D
fkr 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/06/07 Every laptop I've had has been completely unusable in sunlight. The panels would be better placed on the laptop bag in my opinion.
randomperson 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/06/07 how many people have bumped their laptop against the desk or dropped it.....solar panels would break and they are expensive.....imma demote
jakerivers 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/08/07 http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/3950/meraki_introduces_first< should teamup wth Meraki Networks, I think together they could pull this off. Jake
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/09/07 ( randomperson ) Seems that you don't travel too much, and you have ever had an student life :P
fkr 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/11/07 ruvenns - I've been travelling for 2 years and before that I was a student .... my current notebook has more scratches then a scratch-and-win card.
randomperson 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/11/07 i am an engineering student and travel about twice a year to different countries for projects. People don't exactly bubblewrap their laptops or care too much. Most people take care of their belongings like it was their baby, but after a few months they don't care too much. Thats when things start to break.
ruvenss 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/18/07 randomperson ... yeah u r right,lets offer a 5 cents acrylic pack cover, for the the solar panels, so people like you and me can always have a nice and shiny laptop to open in meetings, conventions, and courses :P PS: mine is all scratched, right, but the fans are tired, it does make a noise like if it were a power edge server, and It stops working after the processor gets too high... this is about 30min later I turn it on
rotthund 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/19/07 How about a fission or fusion device in the battery compartment?
winoffice 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/21/07 I like the idea, but the laptop's lid would be so ugly...
bbr 07/30/07	Merged Comment originally posted 07/11/07 It costs more energy to create the current generation solar panel, than it'll ever produce in it's lifetime. Solar panels, and other Light > energy conduction technologies need an overhaul first. Other than that, it looks cool, and its a good idea.
jervis961 07/30/07	good merge
badblood 08/02/07	Merged Idea originally posted 05/20/07 Methanol fuel cell battery units Methanol-using battery units could keep a laptop going for up to nine hours. Dell invest in this technology. Don't be left with exploding batteries any longer.
jervis961 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/20/07 Would be very handy on camping trips. "good thing we had franks and beans tonight kids, otherwise we wouldn't be able to watch Shrek on the laptop tonight"
millhauz 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/21/07 Other brands aren't using those batteries yet too. Would be surely handy but you have to be ready for the transition - Would you brew the methanol at home? There has to be a supply chain for that.... What makes you sure the methanol won't explode or catch fire -> better safe(r) than sorry I guess.
badblood 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 07/20/07 super!
badblood 08/02/07	Merged Idea originally posted 06/06/07 Dell can do even better than this! This computer from LG runs on fuel cell batteries. The batteries work on natural gas, methanol, and liquid fuels. It has OLED displays to help the environment too. And is a rather good looking computer.
kenjennings 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/06/07 Is this for sale? None of the laptops I found at www.lge.com look like this one.
badblood 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/06/07 actually it's a concept. But don't tell Dell, cause they are supposed to make something even better.
expatinasia 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/11/07 LGE will never offer a computer like that. It's a drawing, a concept, an exercise in artistry. Too bad you get fooled so easily.
badblood 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/11/07 I know what it is.
reg 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/11/07 I like the built in Blue Lava Lamp - very stylish! (and can work as a fan-less liquid cooling gel too...)
bbr 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 07/11/07 It looks cool, but yeah, just a concept. the lava lap is probably the fuel storage cell.
rleepalmer 08/02/07	Merged Idea originally posted 05/08/07 Alternative energy laptops I'd like to see an alternative energy laptop, perhaps based on fuel cells instead of NIMH or even a solar panel skin to augment battery life in outdoor conditions.
bennish 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/08/07 YES PLEASE!!! all 3!
reg 08/02/07	Merged Idea originally posted 06/05/07 Use New 40% Efficiency Solar Cells in Notebook Lids - Twice the power of current solar cells Scientists from Spectrolab, Inc., a subsidiary of Boeing, have recently published their research on the fabrication of solar cells that surpass the 40% efficiency milestone—the highest efficiency achieved for any photovoltaic device. The Spectrolab scientists also predict that with theoretical efficiencies of 58% in cells with more than three junctions using improved materials and designs, concentrator solar cells could achieve efficiencies of more than 45% or even 50% in the future. This is a major jump forward for solar power, with double or triple the power coming from small solar panels - very useful for small electronics, and a great cost savings for homes powered by solar, solar powered Prius cars, etc.
reg 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/05/07 Now combine the Doubled Power of the New Solar panels with the Doubled Power of new Fuel Cell Generators, plus Ultra Low Voltage (ULV) CPUs and GPUs - and you have a very useful 'Green' notebook! Four Times the generating power, with less than 1/4th of the current circuits power draw, using flash drives and memory sticks (giving up spinning metal platters and CD drives) + Low power LED lit LCD screens = a very light weight, slim line laptop.
reg 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/05/07 Synergy = The combined effects of many changes is greater than any one change by itself.
verbatim9 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/06/07 I think the real question is whether the cost per megawatt warrants placing these cells on a laptop...most high-efficiency solar cells use very expensive compounds in their manufacture which make them much more expensive per watt than lower efficiency cells...the one hope for future viability that current high-efficiency cells have is that it may be possible to use mirrors to reflect large quantities of sunlight at a single solar cell, so that capturing large amounts of light might make up for the very high price of the cells. In fact, the technology used to reach the world record 39% efficiency by Spectrolab is a concentrator system, which uses lenses and/or mirrors to help achieve its high efficiency...and I don't think it's practical to carry around large mirrors and/or lenses to shine additional light on your laptop lid. Current premium high-efficiency cells do not belong on laptops, which are rarely used in full sun, and never have their lids tilted for maximum exposure while in use. Those solar cells, considering the extreme rarity of the heavy metals required to make them, should be deployed where they can sit in full sun 12 hours a day, and give the maximum benefit to our environment by producing the maximum amount of energy possible. If nanotech finds a way to make high-efficiency cells without requiring the rarest minerals on earth, and without the extremely high prices of todays high-efficiency cells, then it might make sense, unfortunately, at the moment, it doesn't.
ayeohx 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 06/13/07 Wow, nice posting verbatim. While I'm not up on the pricing for super-sweet solar panels I'd have to say I could probably power my laptop for 20 years 24/7 for the same price from my wall jack. Hopefully by then the power cells will be a bit cheaper.
todd_oiesen 08/02/07	Merged Idea originally posted 07/08/07 Greener Notebooks - Solar panel battery charger LCD skin Why stop at notebook panel colors? The self-sustaining notebook; Dell should develop and offer an integrated solar panel LCD skin. Convenient recharging when not in use and prolonged battery life when used in a lit environment. Innovative, could tap into market segments typically difficult for Dell to address and an excellent marketing tool. Talk about creating product lust....... Electrical implementation is fairly straightforward. Mechanically likely the biggest obstacle would be preventing surface abrasions from decreasing solar panel efficiency. (use disposable polycarbonate film like those used on race car windshields, inexpensive, easily integrated into the skin design, a simple customer friendly solution, on going revenue stream) (I would like to be involved in the patient for this solution)
davmcn 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 07/08/07 Nice Idea.
rapotter 08/02/07	Merged Idea originally posted 04/24/07 Solar Hybrid Computer Use a new solar cell technology to wrap the product in solar panels that are environment-friendly. Massey University in NZ (and many other universities and institutions) are developing some amazing new solar power products: http://masseynews.massey.ac.nz/2007/Press_Releases/04-04-07.html< not enough power to continuously run my pc but with new cooling options for chips (see below) you could further reduce power consumption for a much more environmentally friendly machine. Consider the following link as an example only (I am not endorsing the product or company just the idea of a lighter, smaller more effective cooling system): www.celsiatechnologies.com/core_products_Features_Benefits.asp< micro cooling devices being developed will also decrease size and weight and the solar "panels" might even look better than flat grey or black. Bottom Line - your unteathered power time will increase (especially if you take the laptop outside :-) but even other light sources provide some power); the machine is lighter and possibly smaller; it uses less power overall; but it will cost more and take time to develop. A hybrid solar computer would be a better product and good for the environment - besides, people buy the Toyota Prius at a premium and there's still a backlog on them. Green is good for business too.
cosh 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 04/24/07 I doubt it would save much laptop battery power but many lots of people would be racing to get hold of them anyway. A laptop covered in solar panels would look so cool and high-tech.
nelson 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 04/25/07 (This idea originally read solar powered laptop.) Why this will not work: Maximum radiant enery from the sun in direct sunlight is approx 1 KW per square meter, which comes to about 100 wattts per square foot. The most efficient solar cells every produced are about 20% efficient, or about 20 watts. That is in direct sunlight, or 100,000 lux, where it can be dificult or nearly impossible to read the laptop screen. With indoor lighting you are talking about a max of 1,000 lux, or about 0.2 watts at best. To run a real laptop you would probably want something like 50 watts indoors. In order to make this really work you would need an ultra low power laptop that sacrifices speed and storage for weight and battery life.
cosh 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 04/25/07 Maybe PDA's with very low energy requirements would be better suited to this?
nelson 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 04/27/07 Solar cells cost energy to manufacture. You don't get a net energy payback until several years after you put them in operation. If you build them into a laptop or computer this will never happen, since they become obsolete so rapidly. If you really want to go solar power, don't put the solar panels in the shade, for heavens sake! That would not be particularly brilliant.
reg 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 04/28/07 This is a great idea - I have seen the little solar panel for recharging your iPod, Cell Phone, and laptop - very nice. As an option - instead of a regular LCD display 'lid' on DELL laptops - have the option of a 'Solar Panel Equipped' LCD Lid for Dell Notebooks. The Notebook can be left by a window, or sitting in the car - to get a little recharge from the sun. The Notebook will have to be 'hardened' as to withstand much higher temperatures, have a ULV CPU and SSD flash hard drive, make the CD/DVD burner drive removable and replaceable with a 2ndary battery... It will take more than slapping a solar panel onto the case to make a solar notebook - it has to be low power, melt resistant, and safe.
jervis961 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 04/28/07 There goes my idea of a solar powered notebook made of chocolate. Unless I partner with the MnM people...
pro2ghz 08/02/07	Merged Idea originally posted 03/06/07 Greatest idea ever for Dell Laptops Why not add an extras option for all dell laptops that you can put two slates of solar panels on the front of the laptop so this can help recharge the laptop in case you need to do something quick and important but only have thirty seconds of battery left. This also saves us from using electricity. Thus attaching solar panels onto dell laptops fronts can get us free electricity from natural resources.
xgregx 08/02/07	Merged Comment originally posted 03/08/07 Solar is awesome, and I think it is a great solution to our energy problems. Unfortunately solar panels are so expensive. If you could make the whole front of the laptop a solar panel, that would be great. It would love to see that w/o making the laptop prohibitively expensive.
dell_admin10 08/02/07	Changed status to UNDER REVIEW.
premcv 08/02/07	Quite interesting! I'm interested in seeing how Dell goes about trying this one. Wonderful technology though!
bennish 08/05/07	that lg one looks deeeeeeeeelicious
davmcn 08/05/07	Wow Under Review. eh...
petzymathuram 08/06/07	Good idea...This can target ....Agrometeorology......Satelite forecasting and remote sensing labs......I have seen many equipments during my visit to the Indian Institute of Remote Sensing, Nainital ( superb climate) for research purpose.....;).....nearby the vicinity you can visit Tibet.....the land of Dalai Lama....& tigers.....;) (Research + enjoyment) similarly the thermal power stations, solar power generation stations, ....navy/ army.....marketing professionals on a long marketing trip.... Good Idea indeed.. I am sooooo proud about Dell. Perhaps reg's idea of bamboo.....the wood research stations may help in the research...........;) Good show Dell...Keep it up...;)
mtaboy 12/04/07	Merged Idea originally posted 08/03/07 Solar Powered LapTop Solarpowered laptops can change your energy bill and you can stay on the computer all day without recharging. Plus it helps the environment!
markvs624 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/04/07 newer, better battery technologies are more viable. the necessary solar technology has not yet reached a level that could provide sufficient power as a sole power source.
ebrahim 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/04/07 Even if not the only power source, it can act as a secondary power source and reduce battery use. But I think it will be expensive!
ptcase 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/04/07 @mtaboy: This idea has already been submitted already. it even has a picture to go along with it.
markvs624 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/04/07 currently not viable! all of those "solar" charging devices so far are bs. solar panels aren't yet efficient enough to do this, and probably won't be for some time. since dell is not developing solar panels themselves, it would behoove them to improve their battery structures to increase efficiency, even at greater cost to the consumer.
ptcase 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/04/07 sad but true.
winner 12/04/07	Merged Idea originally posted 08/13/07 Make Laptops & desktops that can work on solar energy Energy is the main need of today's world. All the resources of energy are conserving very fast.Only natural resource like solar is going to stay for ever. So, why not use it efficently!!!
cosh 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/13/07 Yes because there's tons of solar energy down in the dark corners where you stuff the computer box isn't there?
jervis961 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/13/07 Can they make a computer that runs on darkness?
kenjennings 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/13/07 Aren't Microsoft software products powered by Darkness(R)?
jervis961 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/13/07 LOL
jorge 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/13/07 Make them to run on human methane :D Master Blaster run Bartertown
kenjennings 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/13/07 Embargo lifted.
jorge 12/04/07	Merged Comment originally posted 08/13/07 EMBARGO! Me Master, you do. twweeeeeee
bbr 12/14/07	A Carbite plasma hybrid might be interesting,, though that's mostly effective for heating your house rather than powering a laptop.
jdelidc Feb 16	i'd go for the solar, but not the hydrogen. laptops don't need extra heat added to the mix, there's too much already
greatidea Feb 19	I agree with you'll incase and badblood, OLED displays should be used, alongwith solar cells in manageble space on the laptop, so that it recovers some of its lost power
sshelvapille Apr 18	Merged Idea originally posted 06/05/07 Dell Notebooks and Environment Add Photovoltaic cells to the area below Keypad/or to the back of the display area on Notebooks so that you can derive power from Sun!
jerenet Apr 18	Merged Comment originally posted 06/05/07 That would be awesome, but how possible is it?
opnickc Apr 18	Merged Comment originally posted 06/05/07 Cheap calculators have had them for years, so I have a feeling price is less of an issue than performance (is the small amount of energy they generate enough to actually charge a laptop?) and aesthetics. I think the best way to integrate them would be to completely cover behind the display (except for a Dell logo in the middle). That way, it'd still look nice (a black, shiny cover is no eyesore) and get quite a bit of surface area for exposure. Still not sure if they'd produce enough power, though.
jervis961 May 26	http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/26/apple-files-patent-for-solar-cells-on-port...
filipan Jul 2	Merged Idea originally posted 05/06/07 Solar cels for energy I would be more than hapy if Dell would develop in a few years sun cels for their devices - desktops or notebooks .

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