Stop making excuses, and start paying attention. WE WANT LINUX!!!

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4760

Stop making excuses, and start paying attention. WE WANT LINUX!!!

4760 points posted to Linux by homer 02/28/07

Dear Michael Dell,

By now, many people will have started reading Blogs and articles about how you have back-peddled on your commitment to listen to your customers' wishes. Here's just one:

http://blog.lobby4linux.com/archives/104-So,-How-Does-It-Feel-To-Have-Been-Ha...

[Edit] Here's a more "high profile" article, from The Inquirer:

Dell backs down from Linux promise

That makes this site (DellIdeaStorm) nothing but a farce.

First you ask us what we want, then you just blatantly ignore us. What exactly was the point in asking us what we want? Is this some kind of sick joke?

Maybe you were taken off guard, and hadn't anticipated the vast demand for Linux that happened, but it did happen, so deal with it ... or be perceived as a liar and a charlatan.

If you amalgamate all the various Linux "idea" posts on this site, and tally up the total votes, you're looking at something like TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND VOTES FOR LINUX. Are you just going to ignore that, and pretend it never happened?

Here's your response to this amazing phenomenon so far, and my comments:

We are listening, and as a result, we are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux, including our OptiPlex desktops, Latitude notebooks and Dell Precision workstations.

Well you are obviously not listening. The vast majority of the Linux requests on this site are not from "corporate" customers, they are from end users seeking home computing Linux solutions. Are you listening yet?

This is another step towards ensuring that our customers have a good experience with Linux on our systems.

It's not a step forward, it's a sidestep shuffle. What exactly are you afraid of ... that people might actually prefer Linux to Windows? I could build and "certify" a Linux workstation in 20 minutes, without the assistance of production facilities and a team of engineers, why is this such a problem for the world's biggest OEM?

Are you suggesting that Linux somehow represents a "problem" with regards to hardware, and that it's going to take a team of rocket scientists months to discover Linux compatible components?

Right now, Linux works with virtually the same hardware that WIndows XP does, and considerably more hardware than Vista ... but that doesn't seem to have prevented you "certifying" Vista (a.k.a. Windows ME2). What a joke!

As this community knows, there is no single customer preference for a distribution of Linux. In the last week, the IdeaStorm community suggested more than half a dozen distributions. We don't want to pick one distribution and alienate users with a preference for another.

No, no, no, no. That's not how it works. This is just more excuses.

At the end of the day, Linux is Linux is Linux. The distro is not that significant (other than the distinction between a commercial or community distro).

Surely the CEO of one of the world's biggest companies can make a decision.

Pick a Linux distro and run with it. And stop making excuses.

My personal preference is for Fedora Core, but if you offered an Ubuntu desktop machine, I'd buy it, because (like I said) at the end of the day it is Linux that is important, not the distro. My primary motivation is to keep my money out of Microsoft's pockets and have an OS ... any OS ... that is not Windows. I can, and probably will, switch between half a dozen distros during the lifespan of that hardware.

However, it is extremely important that you offer pre-installed Linux workstations to end-users, rather than just "OS-free" systems, because without this option, you will be helping to perpetuate the misconception that Linux is not popular. Well congratulations, you have just discovered exactly how much of a misconception this really is. Maybe you should have considered DellIdeaStorm years ago, rather than sit around waiting for point-of-sale figures that could not ever accurately reflect the popularity of something that is a free download.

Trust me ... you will not alienate anyone by making a firm choice of distro support. I'm sure the tens of thousands of home users, who are demanding Linux from Dell, will be overjoyed just to have a choice of any Linux distro.

We want users to have the opportunity to help define the market for Linux on desktop and notebook systems.

This is just nonsensical marketing gobbledegook. Say what you mean, and stop obfuscating the truth with gibberish.

You can "define" the market right now ... by selling us what we want, rather than what Microsoft dictates you sell to us. The 200000+ vote for Linux should be a clear enough "definition" for anyone ... who's prepared to listen ... and not bury his head in the sand.

In addition to working with Novell,

Bad move. By all means offer Microvell to any corporate user gullible enough to swallow Steve Ballmer's baseless FUD about Microsoft's intellectual property, but I think you'll find home users rather less than receptive to any distro offerings from any company that sleeps with the enemy.

we are also working with other distributors and evaluating the possibility of additional certifications across our product line.

This is the only promising statement in the whole response, but it sounds like a lot of hot air to me.

Actions, not words.

GIVE US LINUX!

Are you trying to rejuvenate sales or not? Give the customers what they want.

We are continuing to investigate your other Linux-related ideas, so please continue to check here for updates.

Oh I'll be sure to, but I'm not holding my breath. Microsoft has you far too firmly under their thumb for me to seriously expect any positive changes at Dell.

Thanks for giving us all a glimmer of (false) hope, though.

kyliemanders 02/28/07	Calm down dude! They have already said they are giving you an open source box. Me I just prefer Microsoft and have earned a very nice living developing web apps using .NET. I think Microsoft is American as is Dell and we should give them our money to keep it in the family. There are many many more job openings for Microsoft vs Open source - get real
ladybug 02/28/07	I agree....don't expect things to get fixed in a day
crimlawfed 02/28/07	let customers pick their own distro.
gilhad 02/28/07	I also want any Linux option. Bacause I will use Linux on my notebook and I can transfer any needed drivers to distro of my choice. (I love Gentoo, but that is not so important)
cgkomeshak 02/28/07	GIVE US LINUX! DUDE! Jobs? Get real. There will be a lot more jobs created to convert MS to Linux. Coding is coding. If there is a need, folks will pay no matter the OS and language.
homer 02/28/07	@ kyliemanders: 1. Dell are not promising an "open source" box. They're looking into extending their corporate systems ... and have only given a very vague "brush-off" regarding home user Linux systems. 2. Your preferences and opinions are not at issue here. The Microsoft crowd are already well catered to. The issue is the 200000+ votes for a pre-installed community Linux distribution that is being ignored. Regardless of your opinion, there are tens of thousands of people demanding Linux, and it isn't your place to tell them they can't have it.
s3indiana 02/28/07	Reality Check: Dell Community promoted 146801 ideas divided by 10 votes per account is a total of 14680 accounts (of which maybe 25% will purchase anything) which is insignificant in the big picture. There needs to be millions interested to make a real difference...
frednerk 02/28/07	In the immortal words of Mike from the Young Ones - "that was a very articulate outburst". There are people feeling very alienated and irritated by all the rubbish Dell is saying. The issue here is not an MS vs linux thing. It is a "you ask us what we want, then ignore us or try to baffle us" situation. There could be a bitter community out there. Word spreads fast. @homer - good well reasoned response to kyliemanders. @kyliemanders, homer is right, you are already catered for. Trying to issue opinions on another OS when you clearly are using windows and the .net framework, is kinda like talking to a French person in English - they don't want to know you. And interestingly enough, what happens if the .net framework takes off, kills off google, PHP, SQL and the like? What happens if MS's formerly free .net framework suddenly requires you to register and pay for the privelege of being a developer? Variety helps you to, because it allows you to make a living without being (totally) dictated to. @cgkomeshak - as has been stated numerous times, there are developers willing to work for free on any driver required, so Dell doesn't need to pay for coders. Second, at the moment, linux has more drivers than Vista for hardware and is catching up on XP. Finally, if you have problems with your Vista or Xp machine, who do you contact? I've always had to figure out any problems in windows for myself because the support isn't there. What windows users/non linux users don't realise is, that the community on the major distributions, are huge, helpful and capable. Until you've experience that, you have no idea.
homer 02/28/07	@ s3indiana The "reality" is that the respondents to any poll only represents a tiny proportion of potential customers, since comparatively few people will ever see it. The numbers are less significant than the percentages, which clearly places Linux as the number one request ... by a huge margin. What kind of numbers do you think you'd see if everyone who could vote - did vote? Exactly.
frednerk 02/28/07	@s3indiana - reacting to a market is not smart. Creating or building a market is.... If your figures are correct, how many people are going to buy them? Who knows, not everyone has spoken up about it. And not everyone knows that they could want Linux until they have an opportunity to try it. They have the opportunity with Vista and XP, if they have it with Linux, they could want it. At any rate, offering the choice will at least given them a level of credibility.
homer 02/28/07	Sorry to repeat a comment from another thread, but it seemed appropriate. Back when this thing first started, I'm sure you could vote without registering (based on unique IP address). Can you still do that? IIRC a non-registered vote counted as "3", whereas a registered vote counts as "10". So if we take the approximate total number of "Linux" votes on all the various "ideas" (not just this one), divide it by the average vote "weight", then multiply that by the price of a typical Dell PC, you should have a figure for how much money Dell stands to lose by not providing pre-installed Linux Home Desktops. This is at best, very fuzzy logic, and assumes that everyone who voted would actually buy a PC, but it gives an approximate figure. And remember that conversely, there are very likely many, many more people who would buy but haven't voted, because they are unaware of this Blog, therefore I think that more than evens things out, and in fact the following is probably a grossly conservative estimate: Typical (good) Dell PC = $800 Approx No of "Linux" votes = 200000 Average vote "weight" = (10+3)/2 = 6.5 Dell's loss = (200000/6.5)800 = $24,615,384.62* So basically Dell are happy to kiss goodbye to approx. 25 million bucks. You can start the "Wow" now. Hey Mr. Dell, if you're going to chuck away 25 big ones, would you mind chucking them in my direction, 'cos I'm sure I'll find a good use for them? Oh and let me repeat, that is actually a very conservative estimate.
mrlinux11 02/28/07	Dell currently has zero creditability with me
frednerk 02/28/07	When those stupid Vista ads come one telly or on the bus stop (my missus usually has the kindness and good sense to change the channel at home), apart from yelling abuse and questioning bill gates' parentage, gender, location of genitalia, and the various members of the body he uses or looks like, I have this little saying - "the meh starts now" - because we don't care about a bloated, expensive, restrictive operating system with little or no new features, security akin to that of a 4ft midget with a blowup hammer standing outside a nightclub, and eyecandy that has been done already requiring significant hardware upgrades. I'd like to get a picture of it and post it all over the web. Maybe that's it. Dell don't want linux yet (or at all) until they have milked the cash cow of people needing a new system to run a new OS, because their previous Dell won't run it. Dell credibility = -(negative)infinity and beyond.
kyliemanders 02/28/07	@ homer "So basically Dell are happy to kiss goodbye to approx. 25 million bucks." Even if your accounting was accurate remember Dell's profit margin is around 5%. That would leave a profit of $1.5 mil. Is it worth all the trouble for that measly amount. I would venture to say Dell would lose money by offering a Linux box with all the extra work and employees they would need. In the short term at least.
mrlinux11 02/28/07	Well reading the link you post there it doesnt indicate they want to do Linux, they have been offering Linux on Corporate systems but not home users . And the N series only come with FreeDos and it isnt even installed.
cyber_rigger 02/28/07	Companies selling preinstalled Linux (unlike http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/23168/ http://lxer.com/module/db/index.php?dbn=14
frednerk 02/28/07	@kyliemanders - even if the profit margin was 5% that would/should include the costs of support factored in. How do you know that you would need to put in extra work for linux? Realistically if they have streamlined the windows installation process (keeping in mind vista takes the better part of an hour to 1 1/2hrs for the home user to install vs 20 minutes for Ubuntu) and they employ people from the community or even set up their own (a combo of the two would work brilliantly), most are willing to work for free for linux. As a side point, the fact that I and many others with no knowledge of linux managed to cut our teeth on it by using the community forums, and survive shows it can be done, if Dell didn't want to support. And fixing your own problems does wonders for your confidence and computer smarts. It could be a major re-education process that ultimately saves dell money. Having said that, support for the people with no idea is needed, and sure as heck there are people with the know how out there. Also, consider this. IF 30500 people are new customers to Dell (and that they are all pretty experienced) and that grows to the general user, then yes they will have to put on people. However, if there business grew organically from purely windows sources, they would need to anyway. Reason being is that they obviously would have a number of customers per support staff ratio that they'd try to adhere to (taking into account profitability vs cost vs service). So if they increased their sales, regardless of the OS, they would still put on a similar amount of staff. Also, given that the average linux user is considerably more capable than the windows support staff in their OS, your would probably find that a linux support staff would be able to service more customers than the equivalent windows support staff. I mean, when it comes to administering windows, I would know more than most Dell support staff, certainly more than their sales people. However, i wouldn't venture to say the same about a hypothetical dell linux support staffer. So the cost considerations could even be better, hypothetically. Also, say you paid the guy that bungs in the CD $25 bucks an hour. Ok, now he installs 30500 computers with linux instead of windows. Windows takes 1-1.5 hours per install, buy for conservatism's sake, we'll say 1 hour. Ubuntu takes 15-20 minutes, and with a specially customised CD with the codecs required, the same amount. But for the sake of this exercise we'll err on the side of 20 minutes. Therefore the maths works out like this: 30500 computers x 1 hour per install windows x $25 per hour = $762,500 30500 computers x 20min install on Ubuntu x $25 per hour = $254166. The only possible flaw would be that one guy probably installs more than one computer at the same time (concurrently). However, with ubuntu, there is only one restart, and you don't have to answer the same level of questions as with Windows, nor click the restart button twice. So if it doesn't balance out my flaw, it at least reduces it. At any rate the fundamentals are the same. If an OS takes 1/3rd the time of another to install, you will still reduce your install time and therefore cost by the 2/3rds time saved. Ultimately, it would increase the profit margin i would think. Finally, if you create demand, then maybe the 1.5 million (are you going to kiss goodbye 1.5 mil - i would love it, especially in USD) would increase. That is the idea, tap into an untapped market and increase it.
mrlinux11 02/28/07	Well I will bet Dell uses Disk Images, so the difference in install time is not as great as stated above
frednerk 02/28/07	mrlinux11 - i had a feeling that that was the case and stated that I thought that was a flaw in the assumptions I made. however, it will still save time having a disk image vs ubuntu. And given that a disk image is for a specific hardware config vs ubuntu install doing it the oldfashioned 'scan and load driver' method, maybe they could save time in no having to configure 20 odd different disk images for different systems. Just a thought. But noted, I did know there was a flaw in the assumptions. But the point is made that the support and installation cost need not necessarily be higher with Linux, but could in fact be lower.
homer 03/01/07	Also the "Linux needs specialised (read: expensive) support" argument is flawed. The number one (non-Linux) request on this site is for better support ... for Windows users, so I think that worrying about whether or not Dell can "support" Linux is a moot point, when they can't even support the primary software distribution. It's not like I've never used Windows, so I know what I'm talking about. Windows support sucks. The ultimate resolution to all Windows problems is "Wipe'N'Reinstall®" ... that's assuming you can understand what the Indian Call Centre operator is trying to tell you. IMHO this last resort option (which is actually very often a first resort option), is tantamount to failure, i.e. "I give up, I don't know what to do, there is no solution". Linux users consider such a "solution" to be a joke, and highly unprofessional, but then when you're dealing with a toy OS as inadequate as Windows, it may actually be the only solution. OTOH: GNU/Linux support is a vast dynamic infrastructure of developers, maintainers, and users, who all have access to the source and can therefore address issues with pinpoint accuracy, and usually very quickly too, rather than speculating about what "might" be going wrong.
s3indiana 03/01/07	frednerk posted: i had a feeling that that was the case and stated that I thought that was a flaw in the assumptions I made. however, it will still save time having a disk image Yes Tier 1 OEM's use disk imaging to load the software on the drive. Unfortunately the systems that do mass drive imaging have issues with some filesystems. Using a default filesystem that's compatible with existing imaging systems is critical to adoption by OEM's (and believe it or not formal support is the other critical component)... BTW homer's fuzzy math doesn't change the reality that unless there are millions willing to buy pre-installed Linux machines Tier 1 OEM's would be hesitant to commit (built it and they will come isn't necessarily reality). JAFYI I've been using Linux exclusively for 3 years (previous employer was a Windows-only world) and work daily towards Linux pre-installed on a variety of hardware, but the first step is hardware certification. IOW requirement is development of a Linux Hardware Compatibility list (http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/62702) so that consumers know what hardware works (and how well it works) w/Linux...
phubert 03/01/07	I'd like to see Dell merge my posting on this subject WITH this one... as I've said elsewhere, this isn't about OUR visibility or any individual's point count (someone called another poster a hero for a similar request), it's about communicating concerns WITH Dell. This is the title of my idea post: DELL: OFFER LINUX, DON'T OBFUSCATE And, I will also reiterate: Dell needs to at least give us some firm idea that they INTEND to provide pre-loaded Linux on a wide range of machines for ANYONE who might want one (not just enterprise customers) and make those offerings VISIBLE and EASY to order.
phubert 03/01/07	I see the Dell Forums link at the top of these pages takes you to forums that would be appropriate for Windows users only. So, Dell is STILL afraid of Microsoft backlash??? Shouldn't Dell _add_ Linux/OSS TO these forums???
huffers 03/01/07	I've used linux at home and at work for the past 5 years now, and I would never buy a Dell system with linux pre-installed on it. I'd buy the cheaper Windows version (complete with "crapware") and install linux myself. But I'd be much more likely to buy from Dell, if Dell was also selling a linux version of the system - because Dell selling a linux version of it says to me "linux drivers exist for this hardware". Maybe Dell should only sell Windows boxes, but should have some kind of "Linux Compatible (TM)" logo on certain systems or something.
phubert 03/01/07	If they can certify compatibility, they can pre-load boxes. Naaah... if they want to survive, the'll HAVE to begin to support Linux seriously. They won't die overnight by NOT doing so, but they WILL decline s l o w l y.... while the WINDOWS FANBOYS weep in their beer... or Perier...
neodell 03/01/07	Any serious company that wants to survive needs to take Linux (Kubuntu for example) seriously. Those selling hardware and those that aren't. This includes Microsoft. It is simply the business advantage and if one "feels" deferently from the facts, GOOD LUCK. You will need it.
t20racerman 03/01/07	The title of this thread says it all - stop making excuses - give us Linux! I'll be buying several laptops for work very shortly. They'll have to have MS on unfortunately, but I'll be dual booting them with Linux to start weaning users off of Windows... If they had 'Linux compatible' stickers on them, I'd buy Dell laptops without a second thought.
overcaffein8d 03/01/07	smart, but you could be nicer ;-) but still, grrrrrreat ideas. the only problem i see is winmodems. but you can still have linmodems or whatever. very few people use dialup connections, anyway.
mateo_lefou 03/02/07	t20racerman just curious why you think your acquisition will 'have to have MS on'. There are plenty of Lx options, Dell is just choosing not to be one of them
s3indiana 03/02/07	phubert posted: Any suggestion that Linux sales would be minimal completely overlooks one VERY interesting factor: there are times when SUPPLY GENERATES demand. Basic Econ 101 - Demand determines value/cost of the available supply. Look at gasoline or RAM, if demand remains constant and supply is low then cost goes up; conversely if supply is abundant and demand remains constant cost drops (you get the point). Now marketing could increase demand, but the only end affect is a change in cost with a consistent supply. Without millions interested what benefit (read profit) is there for any Tier 1 OEM to move (remember that margins are razor thin on the hardware)? The benefit for informed consumer is to know what software (OS) functions with differing hardware (i.e. Linux Hardware Compatibility listed above)...
phubert 03/02/07	But, s3indiana, YOU omitted the rest of my post (meaning, you took the sentence ENTIRELY out of context). "You COULD (very erroneously) say; "No one has ever bought this, so it won't amount to much, if any revenue." Interesting. IF you follow that logic consistently, there would NEVER be ANY _new_ products." "Linux on Dell machines has the same potential effect as the introduction of a NEW PRODUCT. " Yes, I too have taken Econ. 1 and beyond... and my point IS on the money... and could easily be money FOR Dell. Again, does Dell NEED differentiators in order to regain market share? Do they need to be able to meet the _growing_ demand in the Linux sector? Could providing a viable alternative to Windows Vista benefit them significantly? I believe the answer to all these questions is YES.
s3indiana 03/03/07	phubert posted: "Linux on Dell machines has the same potential effect as the introduction of a NEW PRODUCT. " Again, does Dell NEED differentiators in order to regain market share? But in reality this is not a new product, but an alternative to an existing product, so show Dell the market research that there are millions of customers willing to forgo the known and move into the unknown. What caused Dell to lose market share that would require a significant investment (changing production lines is no easy task - try to find older versions of windows pre-installed) that would be regained by making this investment. IOW Show Dell the Money :) BTW daily (even on weekends) I work at getting Linux on desktop machines, but Rome wasn't built in a day and Linux adoption will come, but transition can take time...
balle-larsen 03/03/07	I will put it short and simple. When Dell hardware has Linux drivers and no Windows included, my family will purchase Dell equipment.
jake_fehr 03/03/07	1) 200000+ points != 200000+ votes. The "promote" button jumps the score by 10 points. 2) I'd bet that the majority of the points come from two classes --Linux users who have read through the ideas and clicked "promote" on every single mention of including Linux --Bandwagon jumpers who want to contribute to the highest ranked post 3) "However, it is extremely important that you offer pre-installed Linux workstations to end-users, rather than just "OS-free" systems, because without this option, you will be helping to perpetuate the misconception that Linux is not popular" What does it matter? It's not Dell's responsibility to promote Linux. Earlier you state that your goal is to keep your money out of Microsoft's pocket. An OS-Free system does just that. And honestly, does the general public choose Windows because Linux isn't popular? Now, all that being said, I want to like Linux. I really do. I've tried installing two different distributions on my (starting to get old) desktop without a lot of success. The first time I had the help of two experienced Linux users (my roommate at university and his brother), but even between the two of them they could never get it working quite right (never recognized my ethernet card or sound card). The next time (early last year) I tried installing it myself. GRUB screwed my master boot record, and I had to find the original product recovery CD to get a DOS prompt up so fdisk could repair the damage. And even after I got it installed and configured (working sound and Internet), I had a great deal of trouble trying to install any other programs. Firefox --> problems. Newest version of G++ --> problems. GIMP --> problems. Would a Dell pre-install of Linux solve this? Maybe. Maybe not. I've voted in favour of it on the various posts, but honestly... My next computer will have Windows (I hate the idea of it having Windows Vista though), and I'll try Linux on this computer afterwards.
t20racerman 03/04/07	In answer to mateo_lefou, Most educational hardware will (at present) only run on MS systems. I'm working to port everything I use over to Linux, but it takes time. If I could buy a Linux certified laptop (with or without MS) it would save me an awful lot of time.
jmxz 03/05/07	Regarding Dell throwing away the estimated $25 million dollars - I suspect it's much more than this; because many of these buyers will also have influence at work; and will be favorably inclined towards the vendor that they're familiar with at home. If it's only $25 million I bet Dell won't care except as a passing comment to Microsoft next time they negotiate the price of the "Dell Recommends Vista" ad they have plastered all over their site. For myself. 1. Yes, Dell, stop making excuses. Your current "response" seems like an attempt to change the subject from "we want preinstalled desktop linux that works" to "you won't install stuff but you'll do certifications for a few business systems systems". 2. I want a PRE-INSTALLED LINUX WHERE THE HARDWARE/DRIVERS WORK. I don't give a darn about certifications; and a OS-free computer is as useless to me as a Vista computer. I already know I can get a Dell with the Windows discount and spend the time to install a working linux system without your certification and without your extra-charge-for-no-OS. The point is I don't want to spend the time. I want to buy the computer in an already working state, software and all.
jmxz 03/05/07	Regarding Dell throwing away the estimated $25 million dollars - I suspect it's much more than this; because many of these buyers will also have influence at work; and will be favorably inclined towards the vendor that they're familiar with at home. If it's only $25 million I bet Dell won't care except as a passing comment to Microsoft next time they negotiate the price of the "Dell Recommends Vista" ad they have plastered all over their site. For myself. 1. Yes, Dell, stop making excuses. Your current "response" seems like an attempt to change the subject from "we want preinstalled desktop linux that works" to "you won't install stuff but you'll do certifications for a few business systems systems". 2. I want a PRE-INSTALLED LINUX WHERE THE HARDWARE/DRIVERS WORK. I don't give a darn about certifications; and a OS-free computer is as useless to me as a Vista computer. I already know I can get a Dell with the Windows discount and spend the time to install a working linux system without your certification and without your extra-charge-for-no-OS. The point is I don't want to spend the time. I want to buy the computer in an already working state, software and all.
homer 03/06/07	@ jake_fehr This is not about Dell promoting Linux, or promotion of any kind. This is about Dell (and other OEMs) continuing to use the misconception that "Linux isn't popular" as an excuse for not selling pre-installed Linux systems. They now have the proof that this is wrong, all over this Blog. If all Dell do is sell blank boxes, that will not keep my money out of Microsoft's pockets, thanks to Microsoft's predatory pricing policy, which ensures Dell pays Microsoft for a Windows license for every machine sold, regardless of whether or not it contains any OS, Windows, Linux, or otherwise. What will keep my money out of Microsoft's pockets, is if Dell actually start selling pre-installed Linux, and ensure that the Linux configurations have parity with the Windows ones. Dell have already seen that people are prepared to spend actual money on such systems, and once that happens, I am confident you will see a massive uptake of pre-installed Linux boxes. Once that happens, Microsoft and/or Dell will be forced to re-evaluate their volume licensing policy and concede it to at least a certain degree, certainly enough to ensure the continued success of pre-installed Linux Dell boxes, and the end of the so-called Windows tax. You've struck the nail on the head with your comment "does the general public choose Windows because Linux isn't popular?" No they don't, in fact the "general public" don't choose at all, they are spoon fed Windows whether they want it or not. That's the whole point. The only way to break free from this illegal monopoly is to force OEMs to reconsider the demand for Linux, to the point where they can no longer ignore that demand, and then one way or another break free from Microsoft's vice-like grip. Only then will people like me, and the thousands of others on this Blog, and the millions of other Linux enthusiasts worldwide, actually have a choice. The choice to buy a low cost, mass produced, computer, pre-installed with Linux, and without a single penny of that sale going to Microsoft, who have for years used their considerable finances, campaigns of disinformation (FUD), and an illegal monopoly to suppress the adoption of Linux.
jake_fehr 03/06/07	>>This is not about Dell promoting Linux, or promotion of any kind. That's not what you said earlier. From your original post: "it is extremely important that you offer pre-installed Linux workstations to end-users, rather than just "OS-free" systems, because without this option, you will be helping to perpetuate the misconception that Linux is not popular." >>If all Dell do is sell blank boxes, that will not keep my money out of Microsoft's pockets, thanks to Microsoft's predatory pricing policy, which ensures Dell pays Microsoft for a Windows license for every machine sold, regardless of whether or not it contains any OS, Windows, Linux, or otherwise. You have proof of this? I'd love to see it. That is the exact sort of thing Microsoft has gotten in trouble for in the past, so I kind of doubt they're still doing deals of that nature. >>No they don't, in fact the "general public" don't choose at all, they are spoon fed Windows whether they want it or not. That's the whole point. Again, an OS-free computer will deal with this just fine. That is, if Linux had a user-friendly installation that didn't require extensive knowledge of Linux operation beforehand (proper partitioning, shell commands, knowledge of the importance of "root", and when to use it). >>Only then will people like me, and the thousands of others on this Blog, and the millions of other Linux enthusiasts worldwide, actually have a choice. The choice to buy a low cost, mass produced, computer, pre-installed with Linux, and without a single penny of that sale going to Microsoft, who have for years used their considerable finances, campaigns of disinformation (FUD), and an illegal monopoly to suppress the adoption of Linux. What are you talking about? Many of the Linux enthusiasts I'm aware of build their own systems, which covers 90% of what you've stated above (except for the "mass produced" part). And in any case, your statement there is kind of like me saying I want the choice to buy straight Vanilla Coke again without the added black cherry flavour and for a discount since I've had to go without it for a year. Finally, I'd like to ask you what systems you think Dell makes the most money on. I'd bet, like the car industry, Dell makes most of its money on pimped-out, high end systems, and that the lower end ones barely cover the costs of the materials, labour, and warranty. Since Linux isn't great for gaming, Dell probably isn't going to sell a great number of XPS systems with pre-installed Linux. And if they can't sell their flagship product which has the highest profit margin, what's their incentive? Let me reiterate though. I do want them to sell a Dell system with Linux preinstalled. I would at least consider buying it instead of my next Windows machine. I just don't agree with your approach.
homer 03/06/07	Reply part 1. Where did I use the word "promote" in my original post? That's your word, not mine. Discouraging companies from "helping to perpetuate a misconception", is not "promotion". That just twisted logic. If you lie, and I tell you to stop it, am I selling something? If Dell receives thousands of requests for pre-installed Linux machines, and they ignore those requests but instead just sells those requesting Linux a blank machine, then they are doing this in the certain knowledge that if they had pre-installed Linux, then that sale would have added to the metrics for Linux "sales", or since we are talking about Free software, "distribution". This is the deliberate and unnecessary perpetuation of a misconception, and in fact since Dell had prior knowledge that the "sale" in question was a Linux request, it is actually perpetuating a lie. So when a market analyst, rival OEM, retailer, journalist, or end user asks Dell "how many Linux systems did you sell last year?", they have to say "none", even though in many cases they knew that those machines were destined to have Linux installed on them. This then continues to support Microsoft's FUD that Linux is not popular, and leaves people like me making statements like "you can't measure the popularity of something that is free". Consequently, fewer people use Linux, OEMs don't bother pre-installing Linux, hardware manufacturers don't bother creating drivers for Linux, games developers don't bother creating games for Linux, Linux users need to come to Blogs like this to relentlessly campaign for equal consideration, and Trolls use all this as ammunition to support their bigoted ideals, thus earning their keep on Microsoft's payroll. So explain to me again why discouraging a lie is "promotion".
homer 03/06/07	Reply part 2. As for proof of Microsoft's predatory pricing policy: .---- \| Must Pay, Period \| \| Most computer makers avoid seeking buyers who want Linux \| preinstalled, Golden said, because of Microsoft's pricing structure \| for Windows. There is nothing that precludes Microsoft from \| aggressively pricing its products to avoid volume sales Email \| Marketing Software - Free Demo. \| \| "Manufacturers end up paying just as much in total for a smaller \| number of copies of Windows than it would if it shipped every machine \| with Windows," Golden exclaimed. \| \| This has the effect of dissuading OEMs from pursuing non-Windows \| bundling deals. Similarly, having to pay for Windows installations \| one way or the other serves to dissuade computer manufacturers from \| spending the resources to investigate Linux. `---- http://www.technewsworld.com/story/56043.html (2nd March 2007) If you read the whole article, they explain the difference between Microsoft's methods then, and now, and that basically it all amounts to the same thing, certainly in terms of the end results. The rest of your post is already covered by much of the above, except for the fact that apparently you don't agree with my approach. What "approach" are you referring to? I am a Linux user, among many Linux users on this site, asking Dell to pre-install Linux on a Dell Desktop machine, and sell it to me. They are side-stepping, and giving us the brush off, as they have done with Linux users many times before in their history. I am pointing that out, highlighting the issue, complaining about it, and explaining that the "blank box" approach is just another way of lying about Linux market share. Is that what you mean? Do you also want to perpetuate that lie? Why are you so keen to keep Linux off the Desktop? Why are you defending Microsoft so vigorously?
s3indiana 03/07/07	homer posted Yesterday 06 March 2007 (Reply part 2): As for proof of Microsoft's predatory pricing policy: http://www.technewsworld.com/story/56043.html (2nd March 2007) This appears to support the precept that a Tier 1 OEM won't risk the pricing they currently get for an unknown quantity (that might have limitations out-of-the-box depending on distribution). Asking any Tier 1 OEM to risk market share is unrealistic (unless you have data supporting that millions will buy the Linux product offsetting any cost increase of the current offering). This is why the first step is a Hardware Compatibility List (http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/62702) of Dell products, and the level of functionality with certain Linux distributions..
jake_fehr 03/07/07	Homer, 1) Your correction of my logic is right. That was a careless error on my part. However, my original point, that Dell has no obligation whatsoever to do or say anything regarding Linux, still stands. Not offering it as an option does not say anything specific about Linux one way or another. Dell also does not offer iPods, but Apple users aren't complaining that Dell is "helping to perpetuate the misconception that [iPods are] not popular." 2) Microsoft offering volume discounts is not the same as (or all that close to) the old approach of receiving a fixed fee per machine sold. Volume discounts are a large part of the capitalist system, and Microsoft is far from the only company to offer them. Why do you think Wal-Mart and other major retailers often have lower prices for a particular item than an independent store? It's because they receive volume discounts from the vast majority of their suppliers. 3) What lie? Because Dell refuses to sell computers with Linux does not mean they're lying about it in any way, shape, or form. The ice cream stand in my town doesn't sell plain strawberry ice cream, but that doesn't make us assume that strawberry ice cream doesn't sell well anywhere. 4) Resorting to attacks on me shows that your arguments aren't exactly standing on their own Homer. This is EXACTLY what I meant by "your approach." You can sit there and blame, attack and criticize Dell, but I think there are better ways to accomplish your goal. 5) Try rereading my posts. I've mentioned in both of them that I want Dell to offer Linux. Perhaps they'd be able to set me up with a system that works properly with Linux installed without a great deal of screwing around. 6) >>Why are you defending Microsoft so vigorously?" Now, that's a good question, and there are a few answers. First, I've got my BA in history, and if I learned anything while doing it, it was that there are multiple sides to every story, and it's important to look at them all. The vast majority of the posts in IdeaStorm seem to be written by self-admitting Linux enthusiasts. Now, I have not met you, or the vast majority of the people on here, but when I was rooming with a CompSci student (a good friend of mine), I noticed that many (but certainly not all) Linux users simply refuse to acknowledge any limitations of their chosen operating system. This is a nightmare for me, because of my people like my grandmother. If she stumbled onto this board or a similar one and started reading all the posts about the demand for Linux and how great Linux is, without any dissenting opinions, she might get the idea that it is perfect. And when it failed to live up to that lofty goal, I'd be getting the blame and have to deal with the fallout. In my experience (and I'm not saying it's really really extensive), Linux enthusiasts occasionally promise more than Linux can deliver. On the other side of things are Windows users, who are generally willing to admit and complain about Windows' shortcomings (and there are certainly a lot of them, especially with Windows Vista from the sounds of things). Second, I've read multiple histories of Microsoft, and have gained a reasonable understanding and grudging respect of it, and Bill Gates in particular. No, they haven't done everything by the book at Microsoft, but frankly, we'd still be in the dark ages of computing without them. I'd recommend reading "Gates: How Microsoft's Mogul Reinvented an Industry - and Made Himself the Richest Man in America" by Stephen Manes and Paul Andrews. No, it's not completely free from bias, but it was published before the popular backlash against Microsoft. Third, I enjoy debating with people, whether I truly disagree with them or not. I once wrote a research paper arguing that Microsoft should not have been tried for antitrust violations. I got a decent grade on it too.
homer 03/12/07	@ jake_fehr Reply part 1. ###### 1) Your correction of my logic is right. That was a careless error on my part. However, my original point, that Dell has no obligation whatsoever to do or say anything regarding Linux, still stands. ###### The "obligation" here is to "listen to customer's wishes", which is, after all, the whole point of this Web site. ###### Not offering it as an option does not say anything specific about Linux one way or another. Dell also does not offer iPods, but Apple users aren't complaining that Dell is "helping to perpetuate the misconception that [iPods are] not popular." ###### You've twisted my meaning out of context, which wasn't about whether or not Dell offer's Linux, but whether or not they offer blank PCs instead of Linux, where Linux is free. In an environment where people are asking for Linux, and Dell offers those people blank systems instead, that is indeed helping to perpetuate a misconception. ###### 2) Microsoft offering volume discounts is not the same as (or all that close to) the old approach of receiving a fixed fee per machine sold. Volume discounts are a large part of the capitalist system, and Microsoft is far from the only company to offer them. Why do you think Wal-Mart and other major retailers often have lower prices for a particular item than an independent store? It's because they receive volume discounts from the vast majority of their suppliers. ###### I'm not challenging the fundamental principle of volume discounts, which for physical products makes perfect sense, but for intangible products that are nothing more than a serial number (i.e. a licensed permission to use something), volume licensing is unnecessary and predatory behaviour. It costs Microsoft no more per unit to "make" a single license than it does for them to make a million licenses. In fact the process of software licensing is nothing more than a license to print money. OEMs do not receive, use, nor distribute the physical (i.e. retail boxed) product remember, they work from a single master OEM copy that is subsequently imaged to hard drives en mass - a process that is no more difficult to achieve with Linux, than Windows. In fact creating volume copies of Linux disk images is a considerably easier process, since there is no serial number or SID (Security ID) nonsense to worry about. IMO the DOJ ruling against Microsoft should have included the prohibition of abusing volume license discounts to inhibit OEM's (and subsequently customer's) choices. As it stands, any OEM looking to offer Linux (or any other alternative) needs to hit the ground running with an already established market for those alternatives, before that market can possibly have been established!!! Otherwise they will not make up the losses incurred as a result of losing discounts on Windows licenses, for buying smaller volumes. The ultimate catch 22.
homer 03/12/07	@ jake_fehr Reply part 2. ###### 3) What lie? Because Dell refuses to sell computers with Linux does not mean they're lying about it in any way, shape, or form. The ice cream stand in my town doesn't sell plain strawberry ice cream, but that doesn't make us assume that strawberry ice cream doesn't sell well anywhere. ###### To use your analogy, it is a lie, if customers are asking for strawberry flavour, but when asked why he doesn't sell it, he replies "because nobody ever asks for it". That is the lie, the misconception, that Linux is not popular because computers are rarely sold installed with Linux. As it turns out, if Linux were a pre-installed option on Dell machines, people would buy it, as the most popular vote on this site confirms, but Dell are still dragging their heels ... because of Microsoft's predatory volume discount system. To extend your analogy further, let's look at the possible reason why the above ice cream seller is not offering strawberry flavour. Let's say his supplier has massively overproduced chocolate flavour ice cream, due to equipment fault, and have decided to deal with the problem by offering that flavour at a massive discount, in order to shift it. The ice cream vendor, who's business is failing, is desperate for a solution, and when he sees the new inventory prices, uses this as an opportunity to pull his business out of the red, so he only buys that flavour. When customers query this situation, and ask for strawberry flavour, he makes an excuse by saying nobody wants it, rather than admit his business is in trouble. ###### 4) Resorting to attacks on me shows that your arguments aren't exactly standing on their own Homer. This is EXACTLY what I meant by "your approach." You can sit there and blame, attack and criticize Dell, but I think there are better ways to accomplish your goal. ###### This site exists for Dell customer's to make requests. The number one request is for a pre-installed community distro of Linux. Dell have, by-and-large, ignored that request, choosing instead to make vague promises (as they have many times before). That is worthy of criticism. I consider your actions an attack, not my rebuttal of your criticisms. As I said, this site exists for customers to make requests, not for people like you to dictate to those people that they shouldn't be making those requests. What business is it of yours what I request from Dell? If I call my local TV store and ask them if they could stock Panasonic TV's, because that's my favourite brand, are you then going to call that TV store and tell them not to ... because in your opinion Panasonic TV's are rubbish? My motivations are completely transparent. Dell have given me an opportunity to ask for something, so I am asking. By contrast, your motivations are highly suspicious, since your presence here is not helping, is highly disruptive, and seems to have no purpose other than to undermine customer requests. I have everything to gain by being here, and nothing to lose. Conversely, I fail to see exactly what you have to gain by being here, unless you have some undisclosed connection to Microsoft, since AFAICT they are the only one's who actually stand to lose from these customers' requests.
homer 03/12/07	@ jake_fehr Reply part 3. ###### 5) Try rereading my posts. I've mentioned in both of them that I want Dell to offer Linux. Perhaps they'd be able to set me up with a system that works properly with Linux installed without a great deal of screwing around. ###### For someone who claims to "like Linux" you seem to have spent an inordinate amount of effort undermining my attempts to encourage Dell to pre-install it. If you really were genuinely interested in seeing Dell pre-install Linux, you'd be supporting me, not criticising me. According to your earlier post, you "tried installing two different distributions on my (starting to get old) desktop without a lot of success", and then go on to describe a large range of difficulties you had, and yet you say you "like Linux, I really do". I can assure you I am well experienced in dealing with Trolls, and the above post is about the most obvious troll post I've ever seen. To paraphrase "I like it, honest, but it really sucks" is attack vector 1 in the Troll handbook. ###### 6) >>Why are you defending Microsoft so vigorously?" I once wrote a research paper arguing that Microsoft should not have been tried for antitrust violations. I got a decent grade on it too. ###### Well that explains everything. Let me remind you about the purpose of this site; customer requests. This is not an advocacy forum. I have made a request, then followed up with a complaint. It is not your place to tell me I cannot make that request, or that complaint. Since you have, I've had to respond, thus turning what should have been a customer complaint into an advocacy thread, but that is not the purpose of this site. If you want to advocate Windows, I suggest you try the comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy newsgroup (Usenet), but I think you'll find it rather lonely in there. The last time I checked, for the entire month of December 2006 there were exactly three posts. Perhaps you could help them out, they certainly need all the help they can get. I'm sure you'd have much to contribute. Your purpose on this site appears to be only to sabotage customer requests with Troll activity. It is inappropriate, and destructive, and suspiciously like that of one of the so-called Microsoft Munchkins, who have obviously infiltrated this site, with the same motivations as you, i.e. to attack Linux, protect Microsoft, and be well paid for it.
phubert 03/12/07	But, another issue: DO comments (posts, votes) at this site indicate to Dell that they could exploit a _new_ customer base IF they provided systems with pre-loaded Linux? If the answer is 'yes', then Dell needs to evaluate the actual near, mid and long term revenue such demand would generate versus their costs to satisfy that demand. ** Dell started out as the low-cost, direct sales maverick. They MIGHT be able to revive some of their 'maverick' supplier appeal, but they would need to do so without jeopardizing their presence in enterprise sales, though since those are entirely separate markets, it may present no problem at all.
jake_fehr 03/12/07	Homer, I don't know if you check Slashdot on a regular basis, but on March 11, they had a link to an article discussing the Linux/IdeaStorm controversy, and the author's view of the matter. I don't agree with everything Jack Schofield said, but it was an interesting read anyway. 1) For that matter, Dell has no specific obligation, moral or otherwise, to listen to its customer's wishes. If you disagree with their policies, vote with your wallet. If enough people follow, perhaps they'll listen. That's also a major part of capitalism. 2) >>I'm not challenging the fundamental principle of volume discounts, which for physical products makes perfect sense, but for intangible products that are nothing more than a serial number (i.e. a licensed permission to use something), volume licensing is unnecessary and predatory behaviour. It costs Microsoft no more per unit to "make" a single license than it does for them to make a million licenses. In fact the process of software licensing is nothing more than a license to print money Actually, volume licensing makes perfect sense for intangible products as well. The whole point of volume licensing is to guarantee the sale of a certain amount of product, which will allow the FIXED COSTS (rent, employees, etc.), NOT the flexible costs (directly tied to the number of units produced), to be spread out over a larger number of products. As you've stated, the flexible costs are basically non-existent. However, the fixed costs are very large. Microsoft has over seventy thousand employees (and a fair percentage of those probably work in operating system development). 3) Yes, in your specific case (where the alternative is available, customers have asked for it, and the seller refuses by saying nobody asks for it), it is a lie. If, as you stated earlier, the seller just side-steps or gives customers the brush-off, it isn't a lie. An evasion, certainly, but not a lie. 4) Homer, every one of my posts has argued against your points. I fail to see how debating against your points constitutes a personal attack. Your posts, on the other hand, ask some questions that, honestly, are reminiscient of Joseph McCarthy's communist witch hunts, such as "Do you also want to perpetuate that lie?", "Why are you so keen to keep Linux off the Desktop?", and "Why are you defending Microsoft so vigorously?". 5) Please don't take my quotes out of context. I said "I want to like Linux." Why do you think I've tried it twice? Why do you think I've said I'll try installing it again? Why do you think I've voted in favour of many of the other Linux on Dell posts? ...And calling me a troll is another personal attack from you for that matter. 6) Again, you're taking my quote completely out of context. I preceded that sentence by stating that "I enjoy debating with people, whether I truly disagree with them or not." One of my professors suggested that the best way to write a research paper is to pick a thesis you personally disagree with, because you won't be satisfied with your paper's arguments and references so easily, and it will result in a better paper. I wrote the paper in the immediate aftermath of the antitrust trial, which I followed with great interest, and had a very hard time writing the paper. 7) >>It is not your place to tell me I cannot make that request, or that complaint. I never did that Homer. My first post pointed out some things that I felt were unwarranted assumptions. And since then, the only time I've really came close to something else was when I stated "You can sit there and blame, attack and criticize Dell, but I think there are better ways to accomplish your goal." All that aside, what it boils down to is that if Dell did not want us discussing IdeaStorm suggestions, they wouldn't have added a comments page. Homer, if you want to debate this based on logic, and not by resorting to accusations/personal attacks, I'd love to continue. Otherwise, I'll leave you to your request-making.
jake_fehr 03/13/07	Well, it looks like Dell is listening a little more today than they were a week ago. I guess the squeaky wheel really does get the grease. I hope you're happy with whatever the end result is Homer, since you've argued so passionately for it.
s3indiana 03/14/07	I hope all that voted for Linux pre-installed put their money where their vote is :)...
bluesmax 03/21/07	Here's a little reality check for Dell. Several years ago, Dell offered their machines with Red Hat Linux pre-installed. At the time, I didn't have the money to purchase a new machine, but I DID begin saving towards my "new Dell." By the time I had the money together to purchase this hot new computer, Microsoft had bullied Dell into discontinuing their Red Hat offering. Well, now I had the money for a new machine, but no one was selling anything with Linux pre-installed. I built my own. On the primary hard drive I run four different Linux distros, and on the second drive I run Windows XP. The only reason I run XP at all, is that most of the game manufacturers, suffer the same twisted logic, that because Linux doesn't have a huge market share (by counting "off the shelf" sales), it isn't popular enough to warrant the expense of porting their games to play on Linux. The fact is there just is no way to acurately predict what the sales volume would be, since most of the computers running Linux for an OS, have it installed from a downloaded image. Free, but no "off the shelf" sale. I have helped several friends get Linux systems up and running, who in turn, have helped others get a working Linux system. Not one of these systems counts in "market share." Yet I feel that I am responsible for at least 50 computers running Linux in either a dual-boot, or clean install configuration over the last year. I'm also, fairly sure that my experience is not unique and that you could multiply the number of "off the shelf" sales by many thousands of times and still not adequately predict the number of Linux users. Remember that every computer that is sold with Windows pre-installed IS counted as an "off the shelf" sale. To simply ignore such a potential, when you are in a position to capitalize on it, is shortsighted and somewhat irresponsible, especially when you put forth the effort of asking in the first place. While I admit that the probability is low, that I would now buy a Dell/Linux box. (Since I now build my own boxes) It still would not be out of the question. After all, there are machines that will perform as well as mine that come in at lower cost than if I build my own. Rare, yes, but still from time to time I see one out there being advertised, that makes me winch a little at the thought of how much $ I've put into this machine. By the way, I noticed in a couple posts some statements about how difficult Linux is to install. BULL! Ubuntu/Kubuntu, Open SuSe, Mandriva, Fedora Core & most of the rest are far, far easier and quicker to install than Windows. You don't really need to know much at all (I'm living proof of that!) to install Kubuntu - just what do you want for a password & how do you want to connect to the internet. (There may be a couple more questions, but I don't remember - it all happened so fast) Once installed, you can go right to their site and get help on where to get and how to install Automatix on your system, and once that's done, well as they say: "The world is your oyster." Almost 20,000 packages available!
jmxz 03/21/07	s3indiana - "I hope all that voted for Linux pre-installed put they're money where their vote is :)..." Not only my money, but helped influence companies I've been at to put their money into machines pre-installed with the appropriate OS as well (sometimes no OS; sometimes RHEL; sometimes WinXP, but no vista ones for the forseeable future).
phillfri 03/22/07	I just bought a Dell Dimension desktop system specifically because I need to keep up with or ahead of what businesses will be using in office operations. But I will try to install a Linux distro on it - even though I'm guessing its going to be a crap shoot with hardware compatability. But a lot of people don't have that need, and a Linux machine would be a viable alternative for a lot of people. But - Dell is a business, and they need to make money to survive. So rather than ranting and raving (which I seem to see a bit of going on here) it might be more helpful to suggest some ideas about how Dell could target a market segment big enough to make a decent profit center. As far as Linux is concerned can Dell possibly on its own create a unique Dell Linux that would better the Linux distros already available? I think not. Albeit they might be able to assist the Linux community in prying hardware info out of sometimes recalcitrant hardware vendors :>) Could Dell concentrate on hardware compatability to match a targeted group of Linux distros? That seems managable. Could Dell make money on a low end linux machine targeted at the basic "SOHO" productivity environment, in addition to its current corporate Linux efforts? I don't know. I can think of 3 market segments that might go for the same scaleable linux machine provided that machine could run an appropriate set of Linux distros, e.g. [1] The fastest growing group of new computer users are retirees, many of whom are on limited budgets and haven't a need for advanced features (and they have built in basic tech support from children and grandchildren). Not to mention already existing home users whose machines are becoming technically outdated and who dread having to lay out larger sums of money for Vista compatible hardware components that they just don't need or want. And there are the home multimedia people who equate Vista to the Black Plague and just refuse to go there. [2] There are a lot of high school/college students out there on limited budgets also that just aren't into "hacking" and "building", but still need a desktop or laptop that manages everyday educational productivity requirements at a reasonable price point (think future decision makers). [3] There are a lot of small businesses and not-for-profit groups that need much the same computer productivity capabilities for their businesses as the education group needs. A lot of smaller governmental units could easily equate to "SOHO" environments also. Each of these groups might choose a different Linux distro, but it would seem that one could design a scalable linux machine that could readily accommodate a handful of distros that focus on the needs of a group of defined target market segments. If that's where Dell is headed with their Linux distro survey, then I think they are on the right track. It will never be their largest profit center I'm guessing, but it might be a profitable one if done correctly.
phubert 03/22/07	THANK YOU, phillfri! Good comment! My suggestion that Dell REQUIRE its SUPPLIERS to provide drivers for BOTH Windows AND Linux, I think is one way they can approach this. FORD does it consistently with THEIR suppliers... and they get results (tho Ford is hardly an excellent example of overall success, that particular part of their program is effective). Still, we see companies struggling to get out drivers for Vista! I think Linux would be far easier... it's really not the moving target Windows tends to be. ** But, most of all I agree with you that participants here need to make fewer DEMANDS and try, instead, to provide more potentially useful SUGGESTIONS. And, with jmxz ... those who have been ASKING for Linux systems from Dell need also to be ready to put their money where their mouth is once Dell comes through! Talk is VERY cheap.
mattigreenbay 03/27/07	Homer spoke his mind, I say it's all perfectly true. There is NO HARM to be done by adding a Linux option. If there is one tell me.
thebittersea 03/27/07	no one wants linux
mrlinux11 03/28/07	Well the postings here appear to disagree with your statement. "no one wants linux" Maybe you have evidence to the contrary ???
phubert28 03/28/07	Maybe what thebittersea really means is that everyone who IS no one doesn't want Linux... I could go with that one!!! :-D
mrlinux11 03/28/07	March 28, 2007 Dell to Expand Linux Factory Installed Options Since launching Dell IdeaStorm a little more than a month ago, one idea has risen to and stayed at the top: better support for Linux. We have heard you and appreciate the direct feedback. On March 13, we responded by launching a Linux survey asking for your feedback on what you need for a better Linux experience. Thank you to the more than 100,000 people who took the survey. Here are some of the highlights from the survey: * More than 70% of survey respondents said they would use a Dell system with a Linux operating system for both home and office use. * Survey respondents indicated they want a selection of notebook and desktop offerings. * Majority of survey respondents said that existing community-based support forums would meet their technical support needs for a tested and validated Linux operating system on a Dell system. * Survey respondents indicated that improved hardware support for Linux is as important as the distribution(s) offered. Dell has heard you and we will expand our Linux support beyond our existing servers and Precision workstation line. Our first step in this effort is offering Linux pre-installed on select desktop and notebook systems. We will provide an update in the coming weeks that includes detailed information on which systems we will offer, our testing and certification efforts, and the Linux distribution(s) that will be available. The countdown begins today.
jervis961 04/20/07	http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/61771 duplicate
jmxz 04/20/07	@jervis961: Nope, it's not a 61771 dupe, if anything it's a dupe of 65998. The idea here is to "start paying attention" and to deliver on the top ideas, rather than making vague promises. @mrlinux11: "Mar 28 ... The countdown begins today." That's so annoying I wish they'd stop using that. The countdown started when Dell first started getting active in the Linux community in 1994.. Here's a timeline of the hot-then-cold relationship Dell had with Linux over the past 15 http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/66081/bA_Dell_Linux_Timelineb__The_Coun...
andrewmilnermobile 04/26/07	wow, way to appreciate the chance to talk directly to Dell.... It's not like they can make changes like you are asking for in a matter of days or even weeks... ingrate.
homer 05/04/07	To all the naysayers and those who demoted this idea, I'd just like to say ... Nyyyeeeeerrrrr ! :p http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/ubuntu?c=us&cs=19&l=en&<
shooters 05/14/07	@DUPLICATEOF 61771
cosh 05/18/07	@shooters - Don't merge this one. They encompass different concepts, because this post goes to great depth to analyse Dell's response in Ideas in Action, to the previous posts. Without keeping them separate you lose the feedback to what Dell announced. Besides this post is too well thought out to be another quick dup. merge, and has its own lengthy conversation.
jmxz 05/18/07	Agreed. This one is not a dupe. This is a request to stop making excuses and to pay attention to what IdeaStorm users are asking for. The Linux part of the idea is just an example illustrating the point. If anything perhaps this is mergeable with some of the "why are you implementing low voted ideas before high voted ones" - but not with any specific feature.
lionbeast Jan 31	i agree hundred percent with what is said. we want linux on a good machine and cheaper then windows. i stick witch my old pc till then.
zanlok Feb 1	the cheaper part is what is still crazy here.. a very significant part of the reason so many people want the option for some form of linux is to avoid sending spare bills to MS.. part of it is also about the OS itself, but purchasing a linux system should definitely be WAY cheaper, not just a cheaper by some token amount.. (not $40, but more like at least $200)

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