STEVE HARVEY ON HAVING BIG IDEAS
The Dell Community has contributed: 9398 ideas | promoted 642992 times | 71816 comments

How IdeaStorm Works:

Post Promote Discuss See
3810

Make your legal team restrain themselves when they're trying to silence bloggers who are trying to help people buy from Dell.

3810 points posted to Dell, Dell Community by jmxz 06/15/07 **IMPLEMENTED**

Yesterday Dell sent the following letter to a blog that was giving advice on how to better order from the confusing Dell web site (like clarifying pros and cons of when you should go to the Small Business vs Home Office sections; and when you might do even better going to a Dell Kiosk- which Dell's own web site never makes clear). Rather than a take down notice from Legal, a polite email from Marketing with corrections to the inaccurate parts and specific requests to remove the confidential information would have been:

Better for the Blogger - because he wouldn't feel threatened.
Better for Dell - because the article never would have been so widely publicized (I learned of it only because of the takedown notice).
Better for Dell Customers - because the rest of the non-confidential information in the article could still help them.

- - - - - - - - - -
from Tracy Holland
to ben@consumerist.com
date Jun 14, 2007 4:39 PM
subject Posting by former Dell employee

Dear Ben,

Please remove the posting located at the following

http://consumerist.com/consumer/insiders/22-confessions-of-a-former-dell-sale...< contains information that is confidential and proprietary to Dell.

While not all aspects of the entry are accurate, ostensibly an ex-employee posted Dell's confidential information in violation of his or her employment agreement and confidentiality obligations (which prohibit the disclosure of such information both during and after the period of employment).

We would appreciate your prompt attention to this matter. Please confirm that the posting has been removed by the end of the day tomorrow.

Thank you, and please give me a call if you would like to discuss further.

Tracy Holland

Tracy J. Holland
Counsel
Dell Inc.
- - - - - - - - - -

While some of the information wasn't correct; the blogger has been continually updating the article fixing inaccuracies as they're pointed out to him. Your legal team also referred to "confidential information" but never specified what was the offending confidential information that should be removed. It's a bit hard to guess what parts of that posting might have been considered confidential; because it seems like just about all the info in the article can be found (just with difficulty) browsing the Dell web site and Kiosks.

Ideas for your legal team:
* For the case of this article - point out the "confidential" information (if there really is any) and I'm confident the blogger will remove that confidential information while keeping the rest of the helpful advice (which helps your customers buy Dells) up there.
* In general - try to restrain yourselves from legal threats on Bloggers. It would probably have been nicer if someone from Dell Marketing asked the person to correct things; and the whole thing would have probably gone away quietly -- instead of being very visible on many high profile places on the internet and on mailing lists now.
We hold ourselves at Dell and all our employees to high ethical standards and believe ex-employees have an obligation to uphold those standards. We live and learn in this new world of blogs and appreciate your suggestion.


badblood
06/15/07
is this a 'joke'?
jmxz
06/15/07
Is what a joke? The Idea?
No - I really do think Dell could have handled it better if they simply asked for the specific "confidential information" to be removed.

Better for the blogger - because he wouldn't feel threatened.
Better for Dell - because the article never would have been so widely publicized (I learned of it only because of the takedown notice).
Better for consumers - because the rest of the non-confidential information in the article could still help them.
mistern
06/15/07
If repeating the confidential information in a piece of writing is not an option, Dell could point out line numbers and sentence counts...

After that, the blogger could replace the confidential information by [Confidential information deleted at Dell's request.]

By the way, does the blogger really have to take down / moderate this post just because of confidential information insight??
jorge
06/15/07
Thats not a good thing (Dell asking for info to be taken down). Sad day really.

This is where a spin doctor who can re-write whatever the ex-employee wrote several times and keep updating it till the complainers give up. I'd pay to see that exchange. If I don't see it I may just do it here!

Truly a sad day though...
jmxz
06/15/07
mistern: "By the way, does the blogger really have to take down / moderate this post just because of confidential information insight??"

I don't think he has to - but if asked politely he probably would do exactly as you said.
On the other hand, if threatened - it'll rightly blow up into a highly visible censorship story as is happening now. I imagine since the Dell Counsel's letter wrote "Please confirm that the posting has been removed by the end of the day tomorrow" that many people are mirroring the content as fast as they can.
benjesuit
06/15/07
Nice find JMXZ.

Though, there is no nice way to handle the situation. Given the objective of the blog site and its constituents, any response from Dell validates the article. And let's be honest with ourselves here; some of these "confessions" advocate fraud against Dell. Such as #3. Plus the blogger should have known that employees at many companies sign confidentiality agreements which do not expire upon termination or voluntary leave. By posting this confidential info (which Dell doesn't specify which), the blogger is equally guilty as the former Dell employee as he aided in the dissemination of confidential material.

So He should feel threatened. He's committing an illicit act.

It would have been better if the so called "former Dell employee" simply posed as an experienced customer who figured a few tricks of the trade by his many purchases. But no, his ego and need to validate his claim may have lead him and the ignorant blogger in hot water.

Or if the blogger stated that he could not verify if this was in fact a former Dell employee or not and is posting this material as is w/o verification to the information's validity or efficacy.
jmxz
06/15/07
benjesuit: "And let's be honest with ourselves here; some of these "confessions" advocate fraud against Dell. "

Agreed - this is *WAY* over the line. I'll send him a complaint that he's advocating illegal activity. I expect even he will agree and hope he'll fix this..

Would have been good if Dell's letter to him pointed that out too - since I think everyone in their right mind would be on Dell's side on that point.
richard_b
06/15/07
JMXZ and others

We really appreciate your concern, constructive ideas and suggestions.

We hold ourselves at Dell and all our employees to high ethical standards and believe ex-employees have an obligation to uphold those standards.

JMXZ and Benjesuit you have touched upon issues that concern us. Unfortunately, with an employee base the size of a small city, some people do not always uphold the high standards that we pride ourselves on. It was from this perspective that we acted….and found ourselves in a dilemma that you have pretty much characterized.

We live and learn in this new world of blogs. We appreciate your suggestion and even follow through. Consider your suggestion: Implemented.
badblood
06/15/07
jmxz this idea is too long and convoluted. please delete it.
mistern
06/15/07
And it's bitten by the font-gets-big-as-soon-as-you-open-some-tag-bug.
dell_admin1
06/15/07
I want to introduce you all to richard_b -- you asked for more conversations with Dell management and employees, and richard_b is the first of several more people you'll see over the coming weeks with Dell logos next to their names! richard_b is one of our Dell team members who spends a great deal of time out in the blogosphere -- he's made some friends, and also had some good debates too -- but he's always out there joining the conversation on one blog or another. Your kind welcome of richard_b to our IdeaStorm community will help encourage more Dell folks to step in over the coming weeks! (hint, hint)
richard_b
06/15/07
Changed status to **IMPLEMENTED**.
richard_b
06/15/07
thanks admin1 for intro....and look forward to conversations here as I do every day around blogs...and then following up with our teams internally. We learn a lot and appreciate the feedback...just as we got here. Also known as RichardatDELL if anyone is looking for the linkage
mistern
06/15/07
Is Dell really only as big as a small city? I mean, ~20000 employees isn't really much, right? (For a big corporation that is, situation is surely different for those 98% SME out there.)
badblood
06/15/07
hello richard_b.
benjesuit
06/15/07
Shout out to Rich_b!

Peace.
jmxz
06/16/07
richard_b: You wrote We live and learn in this new world of blogs. We appreciate your suggestion and even follow through. Consider your suggestion: Implemented.

Nice to know it's been implemented, to get some closure here - can we

(a) Be told what "confidential information" is in the post -- that would be useful for any of us who might have mirrors of the site who might want to remove the offending confidential information?
(b) Be told what not "accurate" information is in the post -- even more likely that people with mirrors of the content would want to fix it

The last part of the correspondence with Consumerist shows Dell's Counsel still stating that they had good cause for the takedown request

"From Tracy Holland
Thank you. Note, though, it has been almost nine hours since we made the request, yet the posting is still up, with the number of hits growing logarithmically.

Also note, we do not make these requests often (as I'm sure you know, there are thousands of blogs and other online postings that relate to Dell and its products), and we do not make them without good cause.Therefore, while we wait to discuss this request with counsel (despite the source and the clearly confidential and proprietary nature of the information), we ask that you act in good faith to minimize the potential damage caused by this disclosure, and take down the posting immediately.
If the dialog between Dell Counsel and Consumerist did continue further, perhaps Dell should post the conclusion either on the official Dell blog or on consumerist; since the last correspondence we see from Dell still does not reveal what the offending Confidential Information is, nor does it address the not "Accurate" parts that Dell's counsel was apparently even more concerned about than the recommendations to commit fraud (which benjesuit mentions above, but didn't appear to be as much of a concern for Dell Counsel since they didn't seem to mention it in any of the correspondence I see posted).

It still seems the best way to resolve this is to point out the inaccuracies and information Dell was concerned about publicly so we can see the "good cause" Tracey mentioned in the last correspondence we see. Especially since we do see the response apparently from the blogger's counsel claiming "appears to me that it is valid, useful and apparently overwhelmingly accurate. ... We came by this material entirely legally:".

I'd love to either see Dell either:
A. Point out the "good cause" for the takedown notice - so everyone can see that Dell was in the right on this issue, or
B. Recant their claims leading to the takedown notice if the blogger's counsel's rebuttal that the material is legal and accurate is true.

In either case, I think everyone would be much happier with Dell's response than they are today - where it seems the vague threats with no specific claims and disagreements with the bloggers counsel appear to be where this confrontation left off.

lindahewitt
06/16/07
IMO, Dell would better serve their own self-interest and the interests of their customers, employees; if they just dealt straight-up with full disclosure, so that everyone would understand what the rules were for tech support, bargains, refurbished parts for warranty replacement parts.

Most of us are willing to pay for what we get but we really get unhappy, when we feel that we have been snookered and that we have paid handsomely for the privilege.

The question should be does Dell or any company want a customer only once and do they want a customer for life. If it is just once, then they can play the game of a sucker is born every minute and win for a time but if they are trying to build a business based on solid principles, then anything less than straight-up, full disclosure will not work.

As a customer, I deserve to be treated with integrity and respect and Dell's sales gamesmanship does NOT comply with these standards..

richard_b
06/16/07
we have an update on this matter at Direct2Dell....the link is here:
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/06/16/18397.aspx<
jmxz
06/17/07
Cool. Thanks for the response. It does make me me feel better about Dell (and it's good that it addressed many of the points in the blog too).

Tracy Holland still comes across as a bit of a loose cannon, though.

The response never does specify what specifically the "good cause" (to quote Tracy) was. One is still left wondering whether
(a) Dell Legal is really bad at communicating the "good cause" that neither the blogger's lawyers nor the community could find,
or
(b) Dell Legal seems recklessly cavalier in claiming to have "good cause" when they don't.

If you could point out the specific "cause" it'd probably make people feel better about Dell Legal too. If it really is a good one, we might agree that Dell was in the right (even though it was obviously foolish to pursue) and be more sympathetic to you than to the blogger. On the other hand if the "confidential and proprietary" material isn't really confidential or proprietary - we'll feel better because we'd assume your legal will be too embarrassed to make similar claims in the near future.

But without saying what content Tracy was objecting to, cynical people might just assume that Dell thinks the way they "goofed" was to target a hard to bluff blogger who happened to have legal counsel of his own.
ddschamp
06/19/07
jmxz... Not to be rude but it sounds like what you want is the exact information that was removed in the first place. Now if you want proper advice on what is or is not proper policy you can read the sites private policy or just use good judgement. Do not post information that could be construde as criminal, that shares personal information of yourself and/or others, or negativly impacts the atmosphere of this blog. Dell isn't afraid of critisim, thats the reason they created this place for customers to sound off. Dell wants to hear it all, good and bad, so that we can help marginalize the bad, improve upon the good, and create the best product and experience possible.
jmxz
06/19/07
ddschamp:

No - I was hoping that even if there were cause to send a takedown message that they'd say "section X should be removed" rather than "take down your whole posting" -- not to confirm or deny any specific content.

The current "There's reason to take it down but we won't tell you what it is" seems unhelpful at best, and looking at their lack of followthrough-- either not that sensitive information; or else more of a bluff than anything.
ddschamp
06/19/07
@jmxz So what you want really then is to goose neck at a traffic wreck? I'm confussed as to the reason you want to hear what an ex employee has stated? I would also like to know how that communication got out in the first place as usually such emails are confidential.
benjesuit
06/19/07
I'm feeling bluff on this one. Misstep was to validate the article by ordering a takedown. Damage control, AKA "bluff," was to let sleeping dogs lie and change your internal policy to nullify the sensitive information that was "leaked." Such as more stringent controls on returns. Offering surprise discounts. Etc.
jmxz
06/19/07
ddschamp:
The reason I think it'd be nice is if Dell explains how they think they "goofed" is because it matters if Dell's lesson was "let's not threating bloggers with bluffs when we don't have cause; but keep doing it when we do" or if it was "let's only bluff blogs without counsel" or "hey, from now on let's be more open with the community". By saying what the goof was it would give more confidence that they're cooperating more.
tfl
06/20/07
I find it amazing that Dell could be so stupid as to issue this take-down.

I've been a loyal Dell custoemer since the late 1980's and have never seen such a bad idea. Someone should be fired - preferably the lawyers.
ezungu
06/20/07
Dell, for all your steps in the right direction in regard to reputation online, you still continue to bungle things.
mistern
06/20/07
tfl: The lawyers are too important too be fired. Maybe source them out?
winoffice
06/22/07
Nice plan. This way, customers will be helped when buying Dell systems. Otherwise, it would be the more confusing for customers.
g_jones
06/25/07
Mistern - not sure there's an exact size measurement for a small city but Dell has around 90,000 employees worldwide.
wesd
06/25/07
Having just read about the legal letter hubbub, and typing this note on a 2-year old Insprion 9300 that runs perfect, I am disappointed and slightly embarassed to own a Dell product. I only found this letter because I was browing Dell.com looking for a Latitude D630 for my business, and now I am rethinking my decision. Is this what Dell is coming to? (oh by the way, I am reading this on a 2405FP LCD, and looking at my 5 year old Dimension 8200 with 1901FP LCD/loaded to the gills on the other side of my desk).
Please log in to post a comment